Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » UR as start-boost. Viable?
 UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Wed, 16 March 2005 01:30  |
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 platon79 |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 185
Registered: February 2004
Location: Norway | |
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Now the other day I was playing with the idea to pick Ultimate Recycling to use as a boost in the early years, that is, use it for scrapping of the ships you start with for a fast start.
Anyone who has used this idea in a real game?
You may think that a good race for UR-scrapping may be something like SD, with the resource-heavy speed turtle and little Hen. But since the formula for scrapping is:
(current production X extra resources) / (current production + extra resources)
a races advantage with UR is much more based on the NUMBER of ships at its disposal than the actual resources for each ship.
I also postulate that UR-scrapping will be best in a non-accelerated game, probably most beneficial for a HP. In a non-accelerated game, early resources are fewer, and you don't need that colonizer as fast as in a non-accelerated game, and can scrap it with a clean consciousness.. 
I therefore played around a bit with a HP JOAT, scrapping ONE ship pr year, starting with the ship with the lowest resource cost, and following up with the second-lowest etc.
The race I played was a 15/8/21 HP race, and the resources I got from my 6 ships was 12+14+20+30+42+73.
By 2406 I had 76 factories (142 resources).
Without UR I would have had only 45 factories by 2406 (96 resources)
Why did I not pick 15/7/21 I hear you say? Interesting that, 15/7/21 costs 100 Advantage points more than 15/8/21. To pick UR you need about 100 advantage points.
A 15/7/21-race would get 52 factories by 2406 (106 resources)
Such a race would get much better results when it is time to build up all the other planets though..
Of course, UR have other benefits as time goes by too.. 
And of course, if you can afford it, you can pick both 7 and UR..
Why didn't I test it longer than to 2406? Well, the testbeds had different germanium concentration.. if you are truly interested, you can do a longer test and post your results here..
What do you give up by using UR? Except the about 100 advantage points? Obvious. No early scouting and no ships to start with.
As I said, I have not tested the benefits in accelerated play, but I guess it is not as good.
Well, this was a long post. I guess it is about time that somebody posts "Shut up about that UR you idiot platon, it is no good!", but I can't help but think that I may have been onto something good..
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Wed, 16 March 2005 02:59  |
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Actually, I quite like the idea.
There's a thread around here somewhere about using UR to export resources to growing colonies, the catch is: to be effective you need to get ships with just the right resource costs scrapped at just the right time to avoid wasting resources. Combine that with limited ship slots and miniturisation, it becomes more of a nightmare than its worth...for me anyway.
Using the (usually poorly designed) free ships to boost the homeworld looks good. Personally I'd hang on to the scout tho, and early scouting is almost more important than growth.
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Wed, 16 March 2005 03:42 |
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| Robert |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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This is the first time I cite myself:
| Robert wrote on Fri, 29 October 2004 10:19 |
Well, now as we talk about non-popular LRTs, and BET is one of them,
maybe I should publish my results of some recent ultimate recycling
testings. (off topic - maybe move to another thread?)
So - we have seen BET can work, at least I believe your opinion is
worth thinking about and maybe trying it in the right universe
UR has some qualities, too. Lets start from the quickstart point of
view: once I had my standard HG 12/9/16 factories with 19% growth
and tried to improve _early_ growth.
I tested the following things:
- improving growth to 20%
- factory costs 8
- factory efficiency 13
- 50 leftover points to factories
and
- picking ultimate recycling and scrapping early ships
to gain boost in very early factory builing
This works of course only if you got a few early ships that are
more or less useless (say IT, WM, JoaT...)
For the ones who dont know - the formula to calculate the resource gain is:
(p*s)/(p+s) where p is the planet's productivity in resources and s the resources
needed to build the ships being scrapped
So, lets have some numbers and see how starting worlds for my HG JoaT developed
in the first 7 turns:
_____HG__20%__cost8__eff13__lop__ur
2400___132__137__132__133__144__132
2401___171__180__174__174__186__174
2402___221__234__227__227__237__227
2403___284__302__294__292__302__294
2404___359__384__376__372__380__389
2405___453__488__478__472__476__494
2406___567__609__603__593__593__624
2407___696__725__747__733__726__769
So picking ultimate recycling gives a boost of 73 resources
in the first 7 turns compared to the standart HG, better than
anything else. (From 2407 on you usually start shipping pop
to other planets and stop putting everything into factories,
or run out of minerals and start to build mines... so this
is quite a relevant number!)
Still - the different improvements have different costs in the
race wizard, so lets continue with the math:
_____________HG___20%__cost8__eff13__lop__ur
netto gain____0____29____51____37____30____73
cost_________0____83____60____70____50____96
gain per cost__0__0,34__0,85__0,52___0,6____0,76
inc in %______0__4,16__7,32__5,31___4,31___10,48
Ok, compared to the cost setting factory costs to 8 is more efficient
You might also say that UR has no real advantages later, while factory
cost 8 still speed up growth on other planets, which is of course right.
So, when going for a quick start I like to pick a 1 in 10 hab scheme
with one immunity - means fewer, but better greens early, and lots of
yellows with high potential later - the funny part with it is, that
the early terraforming is _very_ efficient - up to 4% in planet value
for 1 step of terraforming. When assuming this hab scheme supports early
growth, and this is about growing early quickly, lets have a look how
UR can improve new colonized planets:
I took my JoaT again, colonized 2 similar planets with 200K pop each, left
lots of germanium and set the standard queue to factories first, then terraforming.
(both planets -3% planet value)
year____no scrap______scrap________improvement
x________149____________149________________0
x+1______170____________184________________10
x+2______192____________218________________26
x+3______217____________257________________40
x+4______245____________334(turns green)___89
x+5______257____________391________________134
x+6______257____________455________________198
x+7______322(turns green)529_____________207
x+8______361____________612________________251
x+9______410____________707________________297
x+10_____528____________809________________281
I scrapped 2 medium freighters each turn in the first 4 years,
costing 4*204=816 resources. After 10 turns the planet had
281 more resources than the planet without scrapping boost.
As the boosted planet has turned green 3 turns earlier it could
have been supported with more pop at that time, improving the growth
even more.
Still, just a nice t |
...
[Updated on: Wed, 16 March 2005 04:36]
2b v !2b -> ?Report message to a moderator
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Wed, 16 March 2005 10:20 |
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I have played both ways with similar HE 3i races in actual games.
UR can boost eccon. You get same boost without a starbase (though less minerals recovered).
Tradeoff is you lose a bit on original points spent on race, plus on research (you build booster ships rather than research at times) and more micromanagement.
You actually come out slots ahead rather than behind... UR means easier to switch over designs as you can recycle the old well. Non-obsolete ships used for boosters are regular slot items like cheapo super fuel xports (junky engines).
Was easier on fuel supply to the frontlines, as many ships such as old medium freighters make a one way trip and then scrap. Even a few small freighters in very beginning can make sense as easy to scrap after when tech improves.
[Updated on: Wed, 16 March 2005 10:22] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Wed, 16 March 2005 17:14 |
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| mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| multilis wrote on Wed, 16 March 2005 09:20 |
I have played both ways with similar HE 3i races in actual games.
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HE would be the hardest race to fully utilize UR. No gates, and the limit imposed on resources recovered per planet make it very difficult for speedy 'transition' of war fleets, especially if you wanted to counterdesign or upgrade using your current ships.
Further, most playable variants of 3i HE's are usually resource restricted via population, not factory/mine cost. Metal usually isn't as big of a problem either. Plus, scrapping freighters is a null issue with the mini-colonizer hull and settlers delight engine until the warp 10 engine comes out.
I would imagine that a non ISB AR could potentially be the biggest benefactor of UR. Send a colony ship + freighters with enough pop so you could scrap some extra ships in a few consecutive turns to get to a SB. Say...100k pop, and 3 ships that scrap out at an equal resource level as the planet produces. Depending on Energy level, you could have a Armed SB in 2-3 turns, and space to grow...
Oh, and the extra minerals wouldn't be a bad thing, either.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Wed, 16 March 2005 18:25 |
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| Quote: |
HE would be the hardest race to fully utilize UR.
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Your style, matt (Mlaub likes 4% HE). I was 6% 3i HE with 1/2500 pop production settings, BET, all techs expensive.
Gateless is ok. Mobillity is improved (compared to usual gateless) by being able to build resource scrappers or send old ships where needed and either speed up factorying up the frontline or throwing them directly into building the best starbase/warships. Big difference to be able to add 50% more resources in the next turn to your new counterdesign starbase and warships when your distant colony is under seige and surrounded by enemy minefields.
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Wed, 16 March 2005 20:18 |
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Blarg! Did that design work you
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Yes, quite well.
Transformers game was intermediate or better with 2 members of the IRC team that beat EA and some other advanced players. I was stuck in most crowded corner of universe with no hope of hiding my PRT.
I was set up best for long term, yet was struggling to hide my growth curve from #1 -f IT Goober by shipping pop to keep resources down. By 2450 I accidently slipped past him to take #1 spot with around 24K resources.
When it ended in 2478 I won with 112K resources, twice as big as nearest rival resource wise. If everyone else remaining had ganged up on me they likely would have stopped me.
It was a crazy game with people getting real life married in the end, going on trips for few weeks, etc.
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Wed, 16 March 2005 20:37 |
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I'm thinking hundreds or more of cruisers/BB's/Nubs, you may be thinking less...
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I'm thinking lots of warships too, likely more than your use to but lower tech. I tend to spread out the battle front all over the place to compensate for my lack of gates... I don't mind losing some colonies as long as I grow others (or steal factory intact) much faster.
To give more details on the example given before, when our enemies seemed to drop out of the game giving us little to fight, Mazda my friendly cornered HP SS neighbour wanted to practice war with me.
I had several colonies in his core surrounded by his minefields. UR helped me make it harder, in one case I almost won a big battle with some fine tuned counterdesigns suddenly popping up... Meanwhile I was quickly growing and building up defences and warship severywhere else thanks in part to UR.
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Thu, 17 March 2005 00:47 |
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| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| multilis wrote on Thu, 17 March 2005 02:18 |
Transformers game was intermediate or better with 2 members of the IRC team that beat EA and some other advanced players. I was stuck in most crowded corner of universe with no hope of hiding my PRT.
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You played in a game, where one started with OAs a 3i-immune?
Obviously not a bad choice, as you won, but still a bit surprising.
Carn
[Mod edit: fixed quote]
[Updated on: Thu, 17 March 2005 03:09] by Moderator
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Thu, 17 March 2005 05:41 |
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| Quote: |
You played in a game, where one started with OAs a 3i-immune?
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OA ships were useful as early boost mining (extra germ speeds up factory ramp up) and as trading terraforming services.
In theory the 3i made me resistant to deterraforming attacks by enemy OA ships. I was total terraforming as well (costs a 3i little) so could in theory deterraform others if game lasted long enough. In practice game didn't have either, we never got into heavy fighting in end.
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Thu, 17 March 2005 11:07 |
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This race would have serious problems in the midgame of a no tech restriction game
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I disagree. Had very similar race in CFLKIAB without the UR (but with the BET, all techs expensive). Have a fairly clear idea on what effects the UR adds.
Just like your 4% this sort of design has both strengths and weaknesses. I am not limited by pop like you are mid game. In both games I was one of first involved war, and heaviest involved in war.
In CFLKIAB it was my large stacks of low tech beamer battleships that dominated mid-game with some missile backup. Best counter to try and slow me down was raindancer's combo of 3 battleship designs: first strike beamer, dedicated sapper and jug missile.
[Updated on: Thu, 17 March 2005 11:20] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Fri, 18 March 2005 15:15 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| multilis wrote on Thu, 17 March 2005 10:07 |
I disagree. Had very similar race in CFLKIAB without the UR (but with the BET, all techs expensive). Have a fairly clear idea on what effects the UR adds.
<snip>
Just like your 4% this sort of design has both strengths
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I was speaking in general, not comparing it to a 4% HE.
Your statement of hitting ~24k@Y2450 is actually low for all tech expensive race. It is easy to hit 25K@Y2450 with a race that has a couple cheap techs. That sort of neighbor would have just as many resources as you, and most likely better tech ships.
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In CFLKIAB it was my large stacks of low tech beamer battleships that dominated mid-game with some missile backup.
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More power to you if it worked. However, why it worked is another matter entirely. You can have success with the worst designed race, and you can lose with the best designed race. In previous rants on my 4% HE's, since you brought it up, I have listed why it worked or didn't work, when not to use it, etc. Since I wasn't in CFLKIAB, I have no basis to compare your performance, and why your design worked. I was certainly not razing you on your race choice. My original post just pointed out that there are some issues with UR HE's that other races would not have to contend with. I never said it was stupid or wrong...
You totally missed the point on my second post. I was speaking of recycling large battle fleets efficiently.
| Quote: |
I'm thinking hundreds or more of cruisers/BB's/Nubs, you may be thinking less...
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The most eff way to utilize UR is scrapping a small number of ships at each planet, each year. The formula it uses is of a diminishing returns nature, against the planatary production. So, that means that turn around time is going to be a while if you have a large number of cruisers or BB's. Sure, you can do all your scraping on a few planets that are 1 jump away from your fleet, but you will loose a ton of resources.
Last time I played a 4% HE in a medium sparse, I built over 200 Beam BB's in the midgame. It would have taken decades to recycle these ships efficently because of planetary resources vs scrapping fleet resource limitations, and transit time. With a gated race, I could have done it in just a few years. My 'style' of play has nothing to do with any of this...it is simple game mechanics and transit time calculations.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Fri, 18 March 2005 16:49 |
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I was speaking of recycling large battle fleets efficiently
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And I was speaking of recycling reasonably large numbers of ships efficiently. My sort of battle posture has them spread out more than most to make the best of no gates. Part of my battle posture is quick building up near the warfront so it can contribute every turn.
For my style UR with factory cost of 6 worked well compared to similar without UR but factory cost of 5. (low factory cost plus 1/2500 pop production rate combo for both)
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Yes 24K is not super. I was intentionally trying to keep the score down (did not want to surpass a -f IT to be #1), I was stuck with 2 others in the most crowded corner, and one of them had started war with me in the 2420s. As well I had above average tech for a -T because I was trading off lots of fully factoried up worlds for techs. (Good greens for them, meant my friends saw all my remaining worlds as poor and were more likely to stay friends).
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Fri, 18 March 2005 18:10 |
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What was your mins settings?
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12/3/25... factories were 15/6/25 with one less germ checked.
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Just to look weaker? why?
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I was set up for a late game power. #1, dueling master Goober with his -f IT was set up to be an early game power. As HE I have gate disadvantage and I am spread out.
Becoming #1 risks having Goober and others unite to 'stop the monster before it's too late'. Tried not to rock the boat when the status quo diplomatic situation is favourable. (Iztok used similar tactics apparently in DA3 primative game).
As far as eccon goes shipping out more pop actual can help long term, gets borders up faster.
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To add, from discussions in early game, a reshuffle for the big end war game seemed to be wanted by friends to be around 2460, so that is what I was aiming for. Most likely a big north (us HP) verses south (rest HG) war. We got suprised by the south basically falling apart and quitting by 2460, I expected them as seemingly HG and expert players to still be stronger at that point. Likely other distractions like the micromanagement of EA verses IRC game contributed.
[Updated on: Fri, 18 March 2005 18:29] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Tue, 29 March 2005 12:24 |
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IIRC, you managed to prevent your SD and SS neighbours from being able to attack you thro early NAP agreements. That was very frustrating.
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I got lucky with those who were hostile to me. Aggressive AR (mineral boost from transformer ships) managed to scare my badly cornered SS HP neighbour (good green overlap, agressive and vague diplomacy). Ptol being only other SS and aggressively competing for planets with my SD neighbour also helped.
But I think the real diplomatic bonus was from how much my quick build factory setup (boosted with UR LRT) was able to get them both good green planets built up, I made myself more valuable alive than dead. (They both lacked factory quick build).
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but for some reason an SD neighbour to the south decided to cancel our NAP. They never said why, but regardless, the 'Loons were obliged to kill them off
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That SD also jumped in to help the hostile AR I was decimating. I believe he saw us as allies. My hordes of mini-colonizers with nothing in mech slot easily crash sweeped his suprise gated in minelayers, and seeing he couldn't even slow me down he quit trying. (By then your mineral packets were also taking their toll on him).
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the SS neighbour didn't seem to want to communicate
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He was also sheltering Ptol refugies after your suprise attack against Ptol. He wanted all SS on one side to the end and thus became the one who talked to Ptol (at that point he wanted war around 2460 and we expected north vs. south for first total war). I started the diplomacy, it was bizzare with you and Ptol sworn enemies and us now friendly to both, and my being reasonably honest to both and trying to set up a war that would make everyone happy.
[Updated on: Tue, 29 March 2005 12:31] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: UR as start-boost. Viable? |
Sun, 03 April 2005 09:58 |
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| Steve1 |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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| Quote: |
This whole discussion reminds me of a funny situation i had once... I found an enemy ship design, a freighter with a computer, which made absolutely no sense at all...
I decided that this guy had to be a complete idiot to build such a ship and attacked - now i know what this design was made for, transfer of germanium for long range...
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The boost to certain races is more benefical then others. An HG or -f IT could use the UR to build gates sooner thereby spreading pop sooner...
(wish I would have thought of it for my current game...)
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In fact IT wouldn't gain any benefit from this, as you could load the freighter up with germ and transfer it through the nearest gate minerals and all & then onto the target planet. This tactic would be useful for any race except IT
[Updated on: Sun, 03 April 2005 10:00] Report message to a moderator
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