Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Tackling Arm BBs
| Tackling Arm BBs |
Fri, 05 November 2004 06:43  |
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 mazda |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK | |
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After a recent duel and various init and upgrade counter designs with BBs I was wondering what do you counter a 7 Comp Arm BB with ?
Putting out a 6 J20 design, with perhaps 1 comp is no good, you still lose all your ships in one hit once the shields have gone.
A MegaD version needs comps to fire first on round 2, so can't use jammers or caps.
(I am assuming optimal mixed fleets, so chaff shredders, beam support are all included already)
Tech is roughly 14/24/12/13/12/x
Mins are not a problem.
Nubs are a long way off.
Are Omega BBs the only way to go ?
Can you use battle orders to get some sort of trick ?
M
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Fri, 05 November 2004 09:48  |
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| mazda wrote on Fri, 05 November 2004 11:43 |
After a recent duel and various init and upgrade counter designs with BBs I was wondering what do you counter a 7 Comp Arm BB with ?
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Why fight on his terms (first shot) ?
Surely in this situation it would be best to concentrate on the chaff and make sure yours survive one extra salvo compared to his. Without any jammers on them, his Arm BBs will get massacred, won't they ?
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Fri, 05 November 2004 11:16 |
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| Robert |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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completely edited:
so there are a few ways, i assume the ARMs are all SBCs, chaff is either scout/frigate move 1 or less, and chaffkillers are range3 beams moving 2.25, having lower init than the ARMs.
so....
you can either go for omegas and jamm your BBs. you shoot first, you have lower weight and move last, so are in range (usually).
3 nice tricks with battleplans i can offer
1) (simple)
use none/none/max damage orders for your chaff - they wont move, and not shoot (what usually does not matter much), so you are (usually) protected by chaff, but his chaffkillers cant come in range in first turn of battle (distance = 7, move 3 and range 3 -> out of range)
2) (medium)
assuming similar fleet composition do the following: order your ARM BBs any/any/disengage - what will happen?
both chaff will move forward, both chaffkillers will move forward, his arms move forward but yours step backwards.
ARMs shoot first, his shoot your chaff, but yours (having stepped backwards) will shoot his chaffkillers, cause his chaff is out of range (initial distance =7, you move 1 back, they one forward -> with range6 ARMS out of range).
if you got enough ARMs to kill all his chaffkillers, next your chaffkillers kill his chaff, will your chaff survives.
next there are 2 things that can happen: first is his ARMS move back, shoot your chaff and chaffkillers, or they continue to move forward and you can shoot him while he shoots your chaff...
whatever: you got chaff and he does not.
you can build some very attractive ships, like gattling frigates that have order to retreat, makes him more likely to step forward, something like that... depends on his battleplans...
but this is a good starting point 
3) (hard)
you lure him into a trap on your world. use the battle board starting positions BBSP to make him start close to your base (invite allies to move in a chaff). the link is:
http://www.starbasedelta.com/ubb/Forum3/SHTML/000035.shtml
you can either use arms on your base and shoot his bombers (higher init, and he is in range cause of the BBSP), or us gattlings on the base. he will move in (with his chaff), you got a first free high init shot and the base kills all the chaff.
(same thing about close starting position). next turn he has
no more chaff and you can move in your fleet. without chaff he is dogmeat...
so far my tricks for this... hope it helps
robert
[Updated on: Fri, 05 November 2004 12:01]
2b v !2b -> ?Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Tue, 16 November 2004 02:15 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| mazda wrote on Fri, 05 November 2004 12:43 |
... I was wondering what do you counter a 7 Comp Arm BB with ?
...
Tech is roughly 14/24/12/13/12/x
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ARM (and all other missile) BBs have an inherent problem with attractivnes. If you put on them 7 comp's there's no place for jammers. After they lose shields they suddenly become more attractive than FF chaff, and quite close to Scout chaff. If you mix in the fleet a decen amount of sapper BBs you can use that fact in your favor.
To make your sapper BBs even more usefull, I'd suggest using the BMC on your killers for chaff-killers. With BMCs high init you can assure the first shoot at his ships, esp. because you need only 2 moves in the first round to hit his chaff-shredders. Be aware those BMC BBs will die thereafter, as they are highly attractive, so don't put on them shields, armor or jammers; only capacitors and comp's (to get the first shoot) are needed.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Tue, 16 November 2004 02:34] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Tue, 16 November 2004 10:44 |
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| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| iztok wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 11:01 |
Hi!
| Carn wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 10:44 |
Why no shields?
This will not increase cost much, but will cause enemy to use more firepower on this and less on others.
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Shields will (very likely) be sapped by regular beamers in the first round, and my parsomonious soul doesn't like to throw away even 100kT minerals for nothing. OTOH in the first post mazda said there was no mineral problem, so it's your call.
BR, Iztok
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But that will let the shields on your other ships last longer or might even cause the enemy sappers not to move all steps, if they already get this lone stack in range.
So i would not say its nothing, maybe not the best shields are worth the price, but maybe some that cost 1kt iron and 1kt germ.
Carn
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Wed, 17 November 2004 08:54 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Carn wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 16:44 |
...or might even cause the enemy sappers not to move all steps, if they already get this lone stack in range.
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If one decides to fight, then that's the reason why beamers should have the max damage order. Sometimes (when expected benefits outweight potential loses) I even give them order to attack starbase or unarmed ships as first target, just to force them closing the opponent's ships ASAP.
Shields on anti-chaff-shredders are optionall, as there usually isn't so many of them to make serious increase in DP. They shot once (hopefully destroying its prime target) and die thereafter. Please don't mistakenly look at them as they're anti-beamers. That kind of ship ia somewhat different story.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Wed, 17 November 2004 11:35] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Wed, 17 November 2004 21:58 |
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| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| iztok wrote on Wed, 17 November 2004 14:54 |
Hi!
| Carn wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 16:44 |
...or might even cause the enemy sappers not to move all steps, if they already get this lone stack in range.
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If one decides to fight, then that's the reason why beamers should have the max damage order. Sometimes (when expected benefits outweight potential loses) I even give them order to attack starbase or unarmed ships as first target, just to force them closing the opponent's ships ASAP.
Shields on anti-chaff-shredders are optionall, as there usually isn't so many of them to make serious increase in DP. They shot once (hopefully destroying its prime target) and die thereafter. Please don't mistakenly look at them as they're anti-beamers. That kind of ship ia somewhat different story.
BR, Iztok
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I just thought of shields, since they are often so cheap compared to the rest of ship.
About "max damage order", does anyone know why sometimes beamers do not close in, although they have max damage orders?
They should always close in, as lesser distance means more damage with beamers.
Carn
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Fri, 26 November 2004 04:38 |
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| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| Shadow Whist wrote on Mon, 22 November 2004 16:38 |
Carn, I think many failures to close the battle distance has to do with having mixed range beam weapons on the ships. The best policy is to not mix different ranged beam weapons on a ship's design. Such as sappers and Gatling guns, etc.
This issue has been discussed in previous threads.
I think this still applies:
| Quote: |
From gible who seems to have taken it from the Stars! FAQS,
Failing to Close to Range 2 with Sappers and R2 Beams:
In the battle VCR, if a token of ships armed is armed with both sappers and range 2 beams, and is facing an enemy token for which it has enough power in its sappers to completely take down its shields to 0dp in a single turn, then the ship will not attempt to move into range 2 in that turn even if it has spare movement points and regardless of the given battle orders (even with maximize damage). If the token lacks the sapper firepower to deplete all the shields then the token will close to range 2 as normal. The exact logic code-wise behind this bug has not been figured out yet.
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Try this thread
http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=348 &rid=316&S=d0636b25f69bb5aa4a93bbb3f7bdbdeb&pl_v iew=&start=0#msg_2573
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I had this problem with a pure range 3 BB without sappers. BB had max damage orders, speed 2.25 and higher ini than ultra station, which had a higher ini than enemy missle ships.
Should have moved 3 squares and been in range of chaff and destroy it, then station would have destroyed the few missle ships and might have survived also enemy beamers.
But after moving 2 squares BB was in range of enemy beamer BBs, which were also range 3 and stooped moving. Chaff was 4 squares away, so i lost.
I do not understand why it did not move further.
Carn
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Fri, 26 November 2004 06:48 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Carn wrote on Fri, 26 November 2004 10:38 |
I do not understand why it did not move further.
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I've seen something similar when defending a planet of my ally with my new R3 beamers, gated in from many planets. The opponent send a fleet of "older" R2 BBs in one fleet. My ships, being only half weight of his BBs, stayed at R3, but one token moved into the range and got wiped out after it fired his sappers.
From other events, when things also didn't happen as expected (like testing minefield passage with 500 FFs), I'd say Jeffs incorporated probability in some events. IMO that's right, as "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy", but players should be informed that from then on some things are no more 100% sure. IIRC no such warning was given.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Fri, 26 November 2004 20:27 |
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| Quote: |
I do not understand why it did not move further.
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Others have laughed at my mixed range designs, but I suggest you sometime give the idea a try.
Currently you have mixed range 3 beamers: regular+ sapper. I suggest instead dedicated sappers combined with perhaps range 3+2 beamers, or even a few range 1's also thrown in.
Advantages: Sappers will go after his missile boats and starbase faster, which means you more likely kill his valuables. Either he backs off from your range 2 beams (which helps your chaff and missile ships), or he faces all your firepower with your range 2 being higher init and cheaper per firepower. You will find max damage orders work better.
While your sappers can slip by to his missile ships (being less attractive), his dedicated sappers may be hit by your lower range beamers that can't reach his more attractive ships.
Disadvantage: 1 extra slot, less firepower at range 3. (So ideally you want missiles to win the war if his beamers back off, leaving your chaff safe).
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Sat, 27 November 2004 04:11 |
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| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| iztok wrote on Fri, 26 November 2004 12:48 |
Hi!
| Carn wrote on Fri, 26 November 2004 10:38 |
I do not understand why it did not move further.
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I've seen something similar when defending a planet of my ally with my new R3 beamers, gated in from many planets. The opponent send a fleet of "older" R2 BBs in one fleet. My ships, being only half weight of his BBs, stayed at R3, but one token moved into the range and got wiped out after it fired his sappers.
From other events, when things also didn't happen as expected (like testing minefield passage with 500 FFs), I'd say Jeffs incorporated probability in some events. IMO that's right, as "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy", but players should be informed that from then on some things are no more 100% sure. IIRC no such warning was given.
BR, Iztok
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There is randomness in the choosing of distance?
Carn
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Sat, 27 November 2004 08:52 |
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| Quote: |
There is randomness in the choosing of distance?
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I am guessing quirks with Stars approach to calculating movement in its if-then-else fashion.
2 things to know... in your case you have sappers mixed in and they do wierd things - look into info on bug of mixing sappers with range 2 beamers. Then apply the info to your current situation. (When enemy shields are not down, Sappers don't close in even with max damage orders)
Second, enemy battle orders can sometimes affect the range your ships go for. In my first game I was facing Raindancers first strike (lots of computers on beamers) dedicated sapper/beamer/missile combo. Testbedding the complex battle I found out my ships with default orders would react different with same battle orders even if all ships were in exact same positions on battle board, depending on whether or not ANYONE else had non-default battle orders (like max damage or min damage).
[Updated on: Sat, 27 November 2004 08:52] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Tackling Arm BBs |
Mon, 29 November 2004 02:55 |
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| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| multilis wrote on Sat, 27 November 2004 14:52 |
| Quote: |
There is randomness in the choosing of distance?
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I am guessing quirks with Stars approach to calculating movement in its if-then-else fashion.
2 things to know... in your case you have sappers mixed in and they do wierd things - look into info on bug of mixing sappers with range 2 beamers. Then apply the info to your current situation. (When enemy shields are not down, Sappers don't close in even with max damage orders)
Second, enemy battle orders can sometimes affect the range your ships go for. In my first game I was facing Raindancers first strike (lots of computers on beamers) dedicated sapper/beamer/missile combo. Testbedding the complex battle I found out my ships with default orders would react different with same battle orders even if all ships were in exact same positions on battle board, depending on whether or not ANYONE else had non-default battle orders (like max damage or min damage).
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Maybe i'm repeating myself, but in that battle i'm talking about, i did have 1 BB with range 3 beams, but without sappers and 1 missle ultra station and some mine layers, nothing else.
Carn
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