Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Regenerating Shields
Regenerating Shields |
Wed, 28 February 2007 15:46 |
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Iconian | | Officer Cadet 2nd Year | Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006 Location: Nevada, USA | |
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Perhaps Regenerating Shields has been talking about in depth somewhere, but I can't find it if so.
I've never used RS, even in a testbed, so I don't really know much about it. I'd always thought that RS cuts the armor in half for all armor components, as well as the base armor on ships and bases. Now, from Battlesim, it looks as though base armor stays the same, while armor for components gets cut 1/2. I'm generally not a fan of most armor anyway, so RS would seem to be a good choice from this point of view.
I've created two races--one with and one without RS. The only remaining place I was able to pull points from was the habitat. So, I'm wondering just how much habitat RS is worth. Is it worth any at all, or is it better to not have it at all? I would think that the cheaper the construction and the more expensive the energy, the better RS would be for you. Due to limited experience, I just don't know much about RS.
So, what are peoples' opinions of RS? Good or bad? What are some good strategies with it? How much is it generally worth?
Thanks in advance,
Iconian
Yeah, bread too.
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Wed, 28 February 2007 16:44 |
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It's fantastic. Correct, it does not affect the base armour. It also doesn't affect armour given by sheild components.
+40% to shields and 10% regen rate is *awesome*. Frigates become *awesome* against anything smaller than Delta torpedoes, and they only really start to look weak once Jihads show up.
Also very nice for all ships that have trouble getting to a 1:1 shield/armour ratio (hint: that'd be almost everything.) 1:1 (or better) shields:armour feels like a very nice target to help reduce the effect of capital ship missiles. With RS you reach this with Gorilla shields (en14.)
Usually RS costs ~10 points... Not much at all for what it gives you... If you have few LRTs it actually pays points.
The nerfing of armour components does hurt, in particular on orbitals. It is nice to have a little extra armour on BBs to increase the amount of armour per ship, which can make the difference between losing 1 bb per enemy missile salvo and losing none, assuming your stacked sheilds are enough to hold. But unless you have overwhelming force, that assumption will rarely be true without RS...
I haven't yet been able to convince myself NOT to take RS.
[Updated on: Wed, 28 February 2007 16:46] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Wed, 28 February 2007 16:45 |
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LEit | | Lt. Commander | Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003 Location: CT | |
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I think RS works well if you are either ahead or behind in energy -- if you're ahead, it magnifies that lead, if behind, it makes up for the deficit. So I would take it regardless of en settings.
Construction is different.
RS works best when you're using frigates, cruisers, or nubians (hulls that typically don't have added armor). Battleships do best without RS. So if your BB era is a long and/or important one, then you might not want RS. RS also helps beamers (need to be fast so little or no armor) and hurts missile BBs (which tend to be armored - if you don't armor your missile BBs, take RS).
IS and WM should almost always take RS, IS for help with croby frigates, and WM like speed, and the BC is a hull that doesn't normally get armored. Although missile DNs might want armor... DNs without armor might get to speed 2.5.
IT might want to skip RS, gating massive armored BBs around is possible, unlike other races.
HE, I'm not sure, no gates, so the weight doesn't hurt there. However, the metamorph doesn't usually waste a slot on armor.
My personal preference is to almost always take RS, it cost is low (10 points sometimes, sometimes it gives 9 or 10 points even - it's considered a 'bad' LRT). Also, most ships have more armor then shields, this helps even that out.
One big problem with RS is that enemies can use sappers, which can negate shields completely. Even so, RS means that they have to have 40% more sappers.
If you will use a lot of armor, don't take RS, otherwise take RS.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Thu, 01 March 2007 00:34 |
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mlaub | | Lieutenant | Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003 Location: MN, USA | |
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LEit wrote on Wed, 28 February 2007 15:45 | I think RS works well if you are either ahead or behind in energy --
My personal preference is to almost always take RS,
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RS is my favorite also.
HE - I always take it, unless I think Weaps won't get to level 20, and nubs are out of the question. In Med to Huge games it is possible to skip the BB era entirely, or with minimal builds. That's obviously a judgement call, but RS CPS Nubs are such a tremendous advantage that it is silly not to take RS if the game might make it to high weap tech and nubs.
AR - I have had serious discussions about this one. I am for RS, and a buddy is for armor. I have seen first hand his point of view. It is somewhat nasty to try and fight Val/superlat armored BB's or Deathstars, especially if you only have Heavy blasters. Really messes up your day. Superlat Nubs can throw a wrench in calculations too. However, a AR is really the only race that can afford to do it properly IMO, as the iron costs are to much to recover from midgame ship cost inefficiencies. By the time you can scrap them, you don't get much iron back. No big deal for a AR, really big deal for everyone else.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Thu, 01 March 2007 13:32 |
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Iconian | | Officer Cadet 2nd Year | Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006 Location: Nevada, USA | |
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Thanks for all your comments. It certainly seems the consensus is "Yes" to RS.
Quote: | +40% to shields and 10% regen rate is *awesome*. Frigates become *awesome* against anything smaller than Delta torpedoes, and they only really start to look weak once Jihads show up.
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And by that time hopefully you have cruisers anyway.
LEit: So the PRT will definitely make a difference. I suppose a race that produces a lot of cheap ships would be benefited more than one that builds fewer, bigger ships?
Quote: | But like i said already it is a free LRT so why you ask?
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Not always free . . . not on my design anyway.
Quote: | Also it does not matter what energy and/or construction tech settings you use. No difference if you have tech for wolf shield or bear shield it is 140% and it regenerates.
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Yes, they both regenerate. But, if you have cheap construction then you're likely to have better armor components available, as well as ships with better base armor. Expensive energy would mean you'd probably have weaker shields available. This combination would mean you might use Cow Hides on frigates and Wolverine shields on cruisers. You'd have a good armor/shield ratio on the Frigate (45/112), though not as good on the cruisers (700/168). In contrast, with cheap energy and expensive construction you might have the Bear shield on frigates with a lot of overkill on the ratio (280 shields but only 45 armor), though cruisers with Gorillas would get a much better ratio (700/490). To me the cheap con exp energy w/RS would seem to go better than cheap energy exp con.
Quote: | HE - I always take it, unless I think Weaps won't get to level 20, and nubs are out of the question. In Med to Huge games it is possible to skip the BB era entirely, or with minimal builds. That's obviously a judgement call, but RS CPS Nubs are such a tremendous advantage that it is silly not to take RS if the game might make it to high weap tech and nubs.
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Is that an HG HE? I've only played the low growth HE's (4-7% PGR), and only against the AI. I think I had cheap energy, so I generally had good shields available.
So, since I've never tried playing with RS before, what sort of changes in strategy would you have to make?
Yeah, bread too.
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Thu, 01 March 2007 16:57 |
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The thing that really swings the balance is the combined arms approach of sappers and capital missiles. You're going to want to have enough shields to have some left over after the enemy sappers hit you, or you're pretty much screwed no matter how much armor you have. Thus, RS is an advantage even in the battleship era when facing combined-arms fleets of capital missiles and sapper-heavy beamers. And really, players that understand the nastiness of this tactic are going to use it on you as much as possible.
Also, skipping armor makes your beamers lighter, which can swing the battle in your favor right there. Against range 3 armored beamers you can effectively use range 2 beams from the next class up. And even the range 2 beams from the same class are cheaper and have higher initiative! So RS + no armor is essentially giving you an advantage of two levels of Weapons tech.
And, armorless BBs are cheaper, menaing you get more firepower for your investment...
Generally the only thing I put armor plating on would be orbitals, because it's half cost and I don't have to worry about maneuverability.
[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 17:07] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Fri, 02 March 2007 02:43 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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Iconian wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 19:32 | Yes, they both regenerate. But, if you have cheap construction then you're likely to have better armor components available, as well as ships with better base armor. Expensive energy would mean you'd probably have weaker shields available. This combination would mean you might use Cow Hides on frigates and Wolverine shields on cruisers. You'd have a good armor/shield ratio on the Frigate (45/112), though not as good on the cruisers (700/168). In contrast, with cheap energy and expensive construction you might have the Bear shield on frigates with a lot of overkill on the ratio (280 shields but only 45 armor), though cruisers with Gorillas would get a much better ratio (700/490). To me the cheap con exp energy w/RS would seem to go better than cheap energy exp con.
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You can take both normal.
Anyway your con will always be higher than your eny, afterall you don't want the con for better armor, you want higher con to get FFs above your enemies DDs, you want LFs, CCs, BBs and 300/500 gates ... This makes eny only a secondary field for research, it does not give you all that *necessary* stuff, you don't need better eny as fast as you need better con, so indeed cheap con and exp eny makes much more sense ... and then ... you pick RS and you boost your low level shields by 40%! Now ain't that cool!
(RS fan)
BTW most of the time you'll see CCs with wolverines and BBs with bears, ... nubs with gorillas have been spotted before as well, though usually by that time most races have enough econ to push their exp eny a bit harder and grab the eny18 shield ...
Another thing, if you use wolverines on CCs : 700/168 ? ... that hull has more than one slot to fit shields.
mch
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Fri, 02 March 2007 06:08 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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Iconian wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 20:32 | Not always free . . . not on my design anyway.
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Yes if you have NRSE, OBRM, NAS and RS from "bad" LRTs then RS costs you 10 points. It is because you have too lot of bad LRTs.
10 advantage points is "free" for me. >50 RW points are the things about what to think.
Quote: | Yes, they both regenerate. But, if you have cheap construction then you're likely to have better armor components available, as well as ships with better base armor.
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If race has strong economy it may take both energy and construction expensive or one of them normal. Expensive fields are possible to research too ... i remember it feels like few turns effort to research expensive propulsion to 23 with 150K resources IT.
Relatively high construction is good on its own. The armor parts are side effect ... my impression is they are useful without RS on battleships or on nubians but never really impressive. The hulls have good armors. Majority of the hulls becomes available by construction 13. Few (mostly special racial hulls) by construction 17 and only one at construction 26. So until construction 13 it is obviously high priority investment, no matter if your race has it cheap or expensive.
Quote: | So, since I've never tried playing with RS before, what sort of changes in strategy would you have to make?
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You just have bit better warships with RS. That does not really affect your strategy. Try to have fewer and better balanced warship designs and try to keep them as bigger fleets. Shields stack and stop regenerating when they have taken down to 0.
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Sun, 04 March 2007 17:47 |
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Iconian | | Officer Cadet 2nd Year | Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006 Location: Nevada, USA | |
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Quote: | Generally the only thing I put armor plating on would be orbitals, because it's half cost and I don't have to worry about maneuverability.
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Not even organics on ships? They're lighter and cheap than other armors. Unless you have a Germ shortage, is there a reason not to use them?
Quote: | You can take both normal.
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Could--and yes, the final cost overall is less--but sometimes, particularly early on, cheap con is quite useful
Quote: | you don't need better eny as fast as you need better con, so indeed cheap con and exp eny makes much more sense
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Exactly
Quote: | Another thing, if you use wolverines on CCs : 700/168 ? ... that hull has more than one slot to fit shields.
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Yes . . . sometimes they'd be useful there, but generally I think I'd prefer more beams, torpedoes, or computers.
Quote: | It is because you have too lot of bad LRTs.
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Probably. But in my design I chose each of those bad LRT's for at least two reasons. If your design has the LRT's you want, can you really say it's too many? After that it just became a question of whether RS is worth those additional points and the hab reduction. If I take RS and lose 5% of my ending economy, is it worth it?
Quote: | You just have bit better warships with RS. That does not really affect your strategy.
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What I'm mainly wondering about is ship design strategy. Organic armor and Superlatanium seem like the best in the game. Would they be worth putting on ships if you have RS?
Yeah, bread too.
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Tue, 06 March 2007 15:53 |
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Oh, I see, initiatve, then range (shorter to higher). What if both of those are tied? Then random?
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Tue, 06 March 2007 17:01 |
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gwellman wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 07:53 | Oh, I see, initiatve, then range (shorter to higher). What if both of those are tied? Then random?
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The shorter range beams in each set have higher init than the long range ones.
If total init is tied, then firing order is random (but, IIRC, consistent within the battle. I imagine it as if each token gets a random bonus to init x, where 0 < x < 1 - enough to sort out all ties, but low enough to only affect firing order where a tie existed already.)
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Re: Regenerating Shields |
Tue, 06 March 2007 23:39 |
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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 06 March 2007 14:01 |
gwellman wrote on Wed, 07 March 2007 07:53 | Oh, I see, initiatve, then range (shorter to higher). What if both of those are tied? Then random?
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The shorter range beams in each set have higher init than the long range ones.
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And they're cheaper. Cheap is good.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 March 2007 23:40] Report message to a moderator
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