Home World Forum: The Academy » F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Tue, 24 June 2008 15:48

vonKreedon

Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA

There are simply too many variables to baldly state that one will win over the other.

The most basic is how much time and space will each race have before having to switch over to a war economy. In a small galaxy with lots of races then a well played -f will likely win because the other two will be too busy building factories to be able compete when the -f comes at them with Weap10 DDs/CCs. OTOH, in a large galaxy with just a few races then the HP will likely win because of all the time and planets available to build factories and then fund research.

[Updated on: Tue, 24 June 2008 15:49]

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Tue, 24 June 2008 19:53

Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008

In a small universe where conflict will be happening fast, -fs will walk over the others. In a larger universe, HGs are often the best because they're more powerful after 2450, and they're still capable of stomping HPs before they get up to speed. In a ridiculously uncrowded environment, like the one I'm hosting (5 players in a large packed) HPs and ARs start to come into the mix (in fact, I'm playing as a TT AR). They are viable in the second case though, you just need luck and diplomacy to protect yourself until you're invincible. (ARs can be considered the ultimate HP, due to the mineral fountain)

[Updated on: Tue, 24 June 2008 19:54]

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Wed, 25 June 2008 09:40

LEit

Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT

Quote:

In a small galaxy with lots of races

the -f will do well for a while, and have lots of fun, but the HG alliance on the other side of the galaxy will probably win. -f have serious problems getting beyond mid tech. Also they often have large habs, and have to be aggressive, therefore they will have diplomatic problems.

- LEit

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Wed, 25 June 2008 09:45

Adacore

Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 156
Registered: February 2005
Location: Shanghai

I'd say for a beginner, HG are probably most "normal" and hence easiest to play. I've got no real experience, but I believe that's the accepted wisdom. HP can certainly be very tough, since you have no way of seriously competing with your neighbours until the mid-late game. -f is probably actually the easiest to play, but I think it needs quite an aggressive playstyle and if you're not used to it balancing your playstyle is probably pretty tricky.

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Wed, 25 June 2008 11:48

joseph

Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol

"Easiest" to play.
I have to say that -f are the easiest to play - dont really worry about mineral balancing, lots of green worlds and can build what you want without crippling your economy.

"Easiest" to win with.
No -f are definately not the easiest to win with. In my experience you think you are doing well, speading out, killing other players, getting tech. Then you notice that X is also doing well - and they soon pass you as if you are standing still. The problem is that you will always do well in the early years AND you need to be able to tell if that "well" is good enough.

Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Wed, 25 June 2008 18:57

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia

Quote:

... ARs can be considered the ultimate HP, due to the mineral fountain

I'd be vaguely more inclined to say ultimate -f or HG. Iirc, planetary res is usually closer to HG than HP, but with the -f advantage of no factory headaches. Also, my experience is that -f tends (I say tends) to have excess mins by about the time AR starts pulling plenty of mins and I've used excess -f mins to support other mineral greedy races in the past (not multiple races at the same time, the way AR can). Also, the couple of time I've played HP AND had excess minerals it really hasn't felt like AR at all - AR has a real mobility edge later in the game that HP lacks.

Just my observation. Smile

Who is going to win?

HG is a pretty good all-rounder, -f and HP are a bit specialised. There are universe, game, diplomatic and racial traits to think about, amongst other things. Generally speaking I'd say HP is the least likely to win where there is decent player density.

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Wed, 25 June 2008 21:32

Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008

I agree with you utterly there, they're very mobile and don't have min problems, but my point is that they're lategamers, like HP. On that point, would an AR therefore be good against an HP TT 1 in 21 CA?

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Thu, 26 June 2008 05:36

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia

magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 26 June 2008 11:02

Sure, in tiny normal with the usual 200 pt CA penalty I'd have a crack at that.

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Thu, 26 June 2008 07:41

Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008

What about in a large packed with 5 players, no BMM, no AccBBS, and no PPS? And no CA penalty?

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Thu, 26 June 2008 08:25

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia

magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 26 June 2008 21:11

What about in a large packed with 5 players, no BMM, no AccBBS, and no PPS? And no CA penalty?

182 stars per player? Pointless.

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Thu, 26 June 2008 08:38

m.a@stars

Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left

What Soobie probably means is that under those "ideal" conditions the CAs would grow so much so fast that everybody else would have no chance. Twisted Evil

So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Thu, 26 June 2008 09:30

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia

Yeah, that too Nod

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Thu, 26 June 2008 15:48

iztok

Commander

Messages: 1205
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe

Hi!

magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 26 June 2008 13:41

What about in a large packed with 5 players, no BMM, no AccBBS, and no PPS? And no CA penalty?

I suggest you to try the TT CA (19%PGR, HG econ, about 1-in-15 hab centered) once in a small packed uni. You'll be shocked at the sheer speed and amount of resources. If the "monster" test is over 25k resources at 2450, will such a CA beat it three to five times in 95% of testbeds. Now a question for you: what race can fight AMP and Armag Nubs with Jugg and HeavyBlaster BBs? Shocked

BR, Iztok

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Mon, 30 June 2008 10:52

Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008

So you're saying I'm doomed? Even though I have TT and cheap bio too, and will have a mineral fountain? Surprised

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Tue, 01 July 2008 05:50

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia

magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 00:22

So you're saying I'm doomed? Even though I have TT and cheap bio too, and will have a mineral fountain? Surprised

If you are playing against someone who has played before and they are mediocre to OK and they are playing a TT CA and they don't go mad with the MM ... sure. you're doomed.

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Tue, 01 July 2008 13:45

iztok

Commander

Messages: 1205
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe

Hi!

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 30 June 2008 16:52

So you're saying I'm doomed? Even though I have TT and cheap bio too, and will have a mineral fountain? Surprised

Just do the proposed TT CA testbed. Then do the testbed in the same uni with your race, and compare results. Deal

BR, Iztok

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Tue, 01 July 2008 16:37

craebild

Lieutenant

Messages: 568
Registered: December 2003
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 30 June 2008 16:52

So you're saying I'm doomed? Even though I have TT and cheap bio too, and will have a mineral fountain? Surprised

In a one on one situation, the TT CA will roll over you long before you have the mineral fountain up.

Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Tue, 01 July 2008 17:31

vonKreedon

Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA

This. Assuming a competent player the CA will ID you as an AR and go directly for your HW before you can do squat. Really, any competent player in a one-on-one situation will do this. AR's require, at least I think they require, allies to help them get to the point they have beaucoup minerals and tech and DSs and can start pumping out capital ships.

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Tue, 01 July 2008 18:03

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia

I think m9m is talking about a 5 player situation, not 1 on 1. CA should still win if he's good on the diplo.

But with 182 stars per player, the CA will probably have the choice of max tech and 100% hab on most planets before serious encounters commence or going hunting early. Obviously the preference is early hunting or you would go mad with boredom.

[Updated on: Tue, 01 July 2008 18:07]

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Thu, 03 July 2008 08:28

Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008

Ok, more extensive summary:

5 players, large packed, Farther positions, no special options. He's new to Stars, so am I, but I went to the trouble of reading strategy guides and practicing.

His race I would call noobtarded. He's a TT CA with expensive bio, and he made the mistake of telling everyone that. (The game is still in very early stages (~2405) btw.) I'm a TT nonimmune AR with 3.5 cheap including cheap bio, set up for complete hab late game. Given that it takes 16 years to get from one side of the galaxy to the other, I can safely say that there won't be much serious combat before 2440 (agreed?). AFAIK he took some rather idiotic race shoices like MA, so I should have the equivalent of at least 100 RW points over him anyway. I also have the advantage of never tiring of Stars micro Twisted Evil

.
1) Is it possible for me to take him without an ally, and
2) If he gangs up with a CA player with a nonretarded race (one of the others in the game, but still a beginner) will I be totally obliterated or would I have a chance?

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Thu, 03 July 2008 08:52

ccmaster

Lt. Commander
Dueling Club Administrator

Messages: 985
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

Hi M9M ,

the Informations you give us are not real much so we could not answere your Questions real good . But I will try it :

1) To take out other players witout an ally is always possible, but with an ally it is much easier , special if you want to win the game not only to take out 1 player .

2) depend on the players and special on the race desine .

An AR could make it in this game , but it will be real hard you will fight later against double or tribble resources and of course better tech .
But if you could expand fast enouth you could do it , special with an ally .

ccmaster

PS : if you send me your race i could take a look at it , PM it if you want

Re: F- Vs HP Vs HG who's gonna win?

Fri, 04 July 2008 07:22

Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008

My race is in the TT AR thread in the AR forum, I think it's my second post.