[Updated on: Tue, 17 January 2006 07:21]

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i think i would give it a try... although i don't know if i can consider myself an intermediate?
i was away from stars! for years, then decided to spend some more time in it again. played 2 beginner games last year, was #2 in the first one and won as a part of an alliance (not the worst part ) the second one.
25k by 50 is not a problem. can send u a proof if u'd like.

so if u consider me to be eligible, plz confirm it. i would love to play if we get enough people.

regards,
strannik.

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multilis wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 09:18

Perhaps allow advanced players with restriction that they may do no diplomacy and set all to enemy?

I don't think that would be much consolation to the weaker player next door who got steamrolled, and couldn't even try to negotiate a way of staying alive

If I allowed advanced players, I'd rather they had a ton of points left over in the race wizard.

Unforntunately, I don't have any clear idea how many points left over would make it fair, as I've never played against advanced players to know how much better than intermediate they are, and I've never seen anyone trying a handicap system like that.

I'm open to suggestions though, as I'd rather be inclusive than exclusive.

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[Updated on: Sun, 08 January 2006 03:09]

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Quote:

I don't think that would be much consolation to the weaker player next door who got steamrolled, and couldn't even try to negotiate a way of staying alive

I'm having a little problem there. I allow negotiations to keep them alive because I am stretched too thin to hold them after anyways and they get mad (want game over quicker)

Quote:

If I allowed advanced players, I'd rather they had a ton of points left over in the race wizard.

Then advanced player can manipulate with diplomacy, that includes fear/uncertainty that gets potential threats to fight each other or to delay their wars till bad timing.

I watched 2 players may send in their warships to attack a weak third without fear of the well armed SS on their backside, yet say not allied with that SS.

IMO no diplomay/attack all at least for me may be less frustrating for others, I seem to have reputation as master of diplomacy, despite efforts to keep sides even.

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Madman wrote on Sat, 07 January 2006 16:06

If I allowed advanced players, I'd rather they had a ton of points left over in the race wizard. Unforntunately, I don't have any clear idea how many points left over would make it fair

Thats not a clear solution either. It may work, but probably not. Dependant on the players skill, all of them. I've tried it, and while it slowed me down, it did not fix the issue. As a matter of fact, I thought it was a bad idea in the end.


-Matt

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mlaub wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 09:04

]Thats not a clear solution either. It may work, but probably not. Dependant on the players skill, all of them. I've tried it, and while it slowed me down, it did not fix the issue. As a matter of fact, I thought it was a bad idea in the end.

Thanks - that's worth knowing, although I gather advanced players have trouble getting games nowadays, which is whay I'd like to include him if I can. Of course Stars! depends on the player's skill - that's the idea . However the skill levels need to be sort of matched up for a game with this much investment.

BTW, we now have 4 to 6 probable players:
Strannik
FurFuznel (depending on whether his other game starts)
Wayne
multilis (if can find a way of handling a more advanced player)
Kado (from the rgcs newsgroup)
Roman Khananov (from the rgcs newsgroup)

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Allow advanced players?[ 9 votes ]
1.	No - they will overwhelm us	0 / 0%
2.	Yes - you learn more playing against better opponents	7 / 78%
3.	Yes - but identified who they are, no diplomacy, attack all	0 / 0%
4.	Yes - but RW points left over	1 / 11%
5.	Yes - but with some specified suboptimal race setting	0 / 0%
6.	Yes - any of the last three options	1 / 11%

multilis wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 06:42

Then advanced player can manipulate with diplomacy, that includes fear/uncertainty that gets potential threats to fight each other or to delay their wars till bad timing.

OK, that's an interesting take on it - when I think advanced player, I think more of Stars! experience (all the counter-design stuff, when to micromanage, etc. - perhaps that's because my playing strength is econ) If someone is better at diplomacy as such, I'm inclined to let them got for it - that is a cross-game skill

multilis wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 06:42

IMO no diplomay/attack all at least for me may be less frustrating for others, I seem to have reputation as master of diplomacy, despite efforts to keep sides even.

A clarification here - by attack all, do you keep just that option in the battle settings, or that you don't play favorites attack on all sides more or less evenly (as you would against AIs)?

I've set up a poll to get some feedback on this - I will of course point out that I've got to make the final decision.

I'm kind of wishing now that I'd put Intermediate/Advanced in the game settings now, but that's not a change to make partway through.

[Updated on: Sun, 08 January 2006 19:13]

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Madman wrote on Sun, 08 January 2006 17:38

Thanks - that's worth knowing, although I gather advanced players have trouble getting games nowadays, which is whay I'd like to include him if I can.

Most don't play at all anymore. The time investment for some top level games can be daunting, as you have to play near perfect to win. Plus, it is tough to look into the future and see if you will have time to play in 6 mos, when it gets heated.

Quote:

Of course Stars! depends on the player's skill - that's the idea . However the skill levels need to be sort of matched up for a game with this much investment.

You could go with a team game, if you get enough advanced players interested. Spread out the talent.

-Matt

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ok, my 2c

if we get 2-3 advanced players and 6-9 players overall, then mb we could make up teams of, say, 1 expert and 1-2 intermediates. the idea is to get 2-4 more or less equal teams. somebody would have to remap the galaxy so each team ends up in the same area. we could assign teams randomly, not letting people make specificaly tuned up races, we could let advanced players choose their teammates before the game starts, or we could allow special race setup tuned up for team needs.
such a game would require a lot more setup work though... and i don't really know if it's worth it or if somebody neutral will volunteer to do it. (if Madman will be playing, which i hope. )

considering "no diplo, no allies, all enemy" setup for experts - imho it's difficult to enforce it... basicly, this will then end up in advanced players going after weaker neighbours as fast as possible to be able to deal with each other at the end. just my opinion though.

imho, banning is also not a good option. there are not many games offered anymore.

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Strannik wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 15:58

if we get 2-3 advanced players and 6-9 players overall, then mb we could make up teams of, say, 1 expert and 1-2 intermediates.

Yes, that's a really good idea, but it's another game. I'm already stretching the setup of this one enough by keeping an option to play myself, and trying to allow advanced players.

quote

considering "no diplo, no allies, all enemy" setup for experts - imho it's difficult to enforce it... basicly, this will then end up in advanced players going after weaker neighbours as fast as possible to be able to deal with each other at the end. just my opinion though.

Not that difficult to enforce really, particularly if there's only one. Remember there is someone who can check turn files during the game if necessary, and if someone is offered diplomatic overtures, they can regard it as fairly likely that other people are getting similar offers, and blow the whistle.

Having said that, having a handicap at the start is kind of neater, as there's no rules to check then, and the player can just get on with doing their best (my game idea of 'Dissolution of Empire', which I'd still like to run some day is like that ... the Empire has lots of rules, the players have pretty much the usual Stars! ones).

quote:

imho, banning is also not a good option. there are not many games offered anymore.

Agree absolutely - it is evil to block someone from participating in something just because it is slightly inconvenient to arrange.

Oh, and I'm learning lots that will make setting up my _next_ game a lot smoother.

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If anyone is ready submit a race, that would be useful to get underway (or are you all waiting to know if the game definitely goes ahead before designing a race?) - I've had a comment from the person I'm using to check the races that he's only had one so far.

Assume (and hope!) that we get about 10 players in a normal medium for the moment - if we change the settings to deal with a different number of players, you can always resubmit, and remember the non-AccBBS start (which IMO makes a slightly wider variety of races viable).

It's a two step process, in that you've got to contact me, and I give you the email of the neutral person you can send the password too (and a curse on the person who invented spam so I can't just post his email directly - he's not a member of autohost).

Some of you might want to check your PM box.

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Madman wrote on Mon, 09 January 2006 08:36

Not that difficult to enforce really, particularly if there's only one. Remember there is someone who can check turn files during the game if necessary, and if someone is offered diplomatic overtures, they can regard it as fairly likely that other people are getting similar offers, and blow the whistle.

sorry, i think i expressed myself incorrectly.
let's consider following scenario:
i'm advanced player, surrounded by 2-4 weaker ones. i know there is another guy in the galaxy, who is also an expert, probably in the same situation. so basicly he is my only real threat, everybody else is just meat.

what i would do in the setting of no allies, no NAPs, no diplo - attack the weakest of my neighbours as soon as possible, hoping to get his space fast before my neighbours organize against me. then grow a little, or maybe just go straight after the next one. in the long run i have only 1 real opponent. and the winner will basicly be the one who takes out more "meat"/occupies more space. of course, assuming equal skill levels and no obvious mistakes made.

it's not bad overall. i mean, even if u lose to a more skilled one - u can still learn a lot out of it. but the first "meat" might find it a little disappointing to have jihad CCs falling on his head year 25-30, as he is still researching bazooka FF.

but i cannot think of real alternatives. so let's try to start and see, what happens, and how fast we can make friends to withstand the attack.

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[Updated on: Mon, 09 January 2006 23:08]

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Hi!

Orange wrote on Wed, 11 January 2006 00:01

What is the difference between an advance versus intermediate player?

Advanced player will win 9 of 10 duels with an intermediate player.
Seriously, it's hard to point on a single skill, it's more a combination of many things, that advanced players utilize and combine much more successfully than intermediates.
BR, Iztok

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