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Testbeds Mon, 08 August 2005 04:46 Go to next message
killerk is currently offline killerk

 
Civilian

Messages: 3
Registered: July 2005
Location: Singapore

Hi, i'm new here. I would like to know what exactly is a testbed. What is is used for? What is a "standard" testbed? How do u do testbedding?

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Re: Testbeds Mon, 08 August 2005 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Storm is currently offline Storm

 
Ensign

Messages: 359
Registered: February 2005
Location: Wanker's Corner

A testbed...

...is essentially a standalone game, played against AI, which is used to test the mechanics or strategies used within the game.

The parameters of the game usually depend upon what exactly it is you are attempting to test.

Tesbedding is also used to test (and modify) races in a similar universe setup, prior to using the race in a game against real live humans.

So, in short, a testbed is nothing more than a game which you have set up to test something... Smile

Oh, and welcome to the board, by the way....

Cool



** Storm **

"Yeah... but... Jar Jar makes the Ewoks look like f***ing Shaft!"

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Re: Testbeds Tue, 09 August 2005 00:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jrbuller is currently offline jrbuller

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 48
Registered: February 2004
Location: Clearwater, FL
Normally, when we talk about using a testbed, it's for a race design. The one thing you learn when you play Stars!, especially against humans, is that there is no "perfect race". Each game has its own set of victory conditions, its own rules, and so on. A good player (and I'm not claiming to be one, I'm barely above beginner status....) will combine this with the type of universe and other factors, and make a race that he thinks will be the best fit. Then you throw that race into a new AI Stars! game with similar settings and see how it does.

And after constant tweaking and ten or twenty testbeds, you take the race out into the universe, and ... you STILL get your butt kicked. Head Explode But that's the fun of Stars!

jrbuller

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Re: Testbeds Tue, 09 August 2005 04:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar
Another type of testbed is where you mock up the races from a current online game with the correct PRTs and known LRTs to do battle testbeds. Basically you set the races up as best you can, then do a big force gen to max out the homeworlds. Be carefull to only let the races research to your estimates of their current tech . Use mineral alchemy to prevent them racing past - If you let tehm max tech then miniturisation will alter the course of some battles due to the effects to miniturisation on attractiveness.)

Now you have a battle-simulator tailored to your current game. Make a back-up now so you can mess around without having to go through all the same trouble again in 5 turns.... Rolling Eyes

Just plug in the ship designs and you can set up test battles to get an idea how things might turn out... Cool

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Re: Testbeds Tue, 09 August 2005 07:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
killerk wrote on Mon, 08 August 2005 10:46

Hi, i'm new here. I would like to know what exactly is a testbed. What is is used for? What is a "standard" testbed? How do u do testbedding?


Quoting Alberto BARSELLA on rgcs (Mar 4 1998):

Quote:


There's no "standard" unfortunately Sad
You can use a small/dense, no AI, accel BBS, and the "25K by 2450" mark.
Others prefer small/packed or medium/packed.
Others throw in beginner minerals to facilitate comparison.
Others use "armageddons by 2460" as a mark.

Personally I use the first one I said, and I add in 3 expert AIs (2 SS and 1 PP) when I want to do some "real" testing. I use those AI because they are annoying, the HE is just free colonies (and tech) in a small and the others just sit there doing almost nothing.

BTW 40K/2450 with AR is a very good performace which requires specific study, since the AR race is substantially different from all the other races. I'm sure I would NOT qualify for such a game...


So, you basically design your race, save it to a file, then create a game with the settings you like to test, then play until you can say the race design performs as expected (or better, or worse)...

See also http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=253 1&start=0&rid=625&S=a85a5caaa4021526fca5d707c6ab 1843 for some tips & tricks.

But of course you've seen nothing till you've been in a real game. Wink


[Updated on: Tue, 09 August 2005 09:21]




So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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What testbed do you use? Tue, 09 August 2005 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005

What testbed do you use?[ 14 votes ]
1. Tiny/Normal, constant MM 0 / 0%
2. Tiny/Dense, constant MM 0 / 0%
3. Tiny/Packed, constant MM 0 / 0%
4. Tiny/Normal, no MM after turn 30 0 / 0%
5. Tiny/Dense, no MM after turn 30 0 / 0%
6. Tiny/Packed, no MM after turn 30 2 / 14%
7. Small/Normal, constant MM 0 / 0%
8. Small/Dense, constant MM 2 / 14%
9. Small/Packed, constant MM 1 / 7%
10. Small/Normal, no MM after turn 30 0 / 0%
11. Small/Dense, no MM after turn 30 0 / 0%
12. Small/Packed, no MM after turn 30 5 / 36%
13. Medium/* (any density), constant MM 0 / 0%
14. Medium/*, no MM after turn 30 0 / 0%
15. Tiny/Packed constant MM for normal races, Small/Packed & no MM after turn 30 for two-planet races (IT and PP) 1 / 7%
16. Testbed? I don't need no stinkin' testbed! Cool 2 / 14%
17. What's a testbed? Question 0 / 0%
18. Something else (comment) 1 / 7%

This is something I've been wondering for a while. What testbed do you use to ensure your race meets the 25k by 2450 mark (or Armageddons by 2460 mark or whatever criterion you choose)?

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Re: What testbed do you use? Tue, 09 August 2005 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
If you design race for sparse game then try it in small sparse.
If you design race for packed game then try it in tiny packed.
If you design race for normal start (no Acc BBS) game then try it with no ACC BBS and run it up to 2457.
Take other effects (like beginner minerals or no random events) in testbed if the game you aim for has these.
If its AR what you test then do not stop MM at turn 30 (because around turn 30 AR gets ultrastations). With other PRT-s its often safe to stop most MM at year 2430 (does not change the outcome by lot).
25k at 2450 does not say its monster! Laughing I have got 25K at 2450 both with vanilla Humanoids and Rabbitoids (in small packed). Compare the results with your own achievements with other designs.

AI is too weak to judge races military strength by fighting with AIs. I have won 4 allied expert AI-s with 5% AR in medium normal so i know what im saying. Cool




[Updated on: Tue, 09 August 2005 13:45]

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Re: What testbed do you use? Wed, 10 August 2005 06:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
Kotk wrote on Tue, 09 August 2005 19:26

25k at 2450 does not say its monster! Laughing I have got 25K at 2450 both with vanilla Humanoids and Rabbitoids (in small packed). Compare the results with your own achievements with other designs.


Yeah. That looks like sound advice, too easily overlooked. Testbed the Humanoids 1st, then when you know how to *reliably* beat the mark with them, you can try your own designs. I think even Cawley mentioned it.

Quote:


AI is too weak to judge races military strength by fighting with AIs. I have won 4 allied expert AI-s with 5% AR in medium normal so i know what im saying. Cool



I use AIs for limiting my colonizing phase as well as timing the race's abilities. For example: Am I able to popdrop an HE AI in close quarters? Am I able to stop the AR AI from bombing my colonies with their colonizers? Can I reach Nubians before the HE on the other side of a Huge galaxy does?

Many designs who shined in solo play failed miserably even these simplest of challenges... Sad

But then, even races who can crush 15 allied expert AIs in a Huge galaxy might fall short against people. Razz




So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: What testbed do you use? Wed, 10 August 2005 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Every testbed I've ever run has been tailored to the specs of the game I was testing for. I have no idea if I can reach 25K by 2450, the only time I tried it I got bored by 2430 because nothing interesting was happening.

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Re: What testbed do you use? Thu, 11 August 2005 08:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
gible wrote on Wed, 10 August 2005 14:35

I have no idea if I can reach 25K by 2450, the only time I tried it I got bored by 2430 because nothing interesting was happening.


Heh, that's why everybody usually stops MM by that turn and just force-gens the remaining 20 turns. Wink

It would also depend on the race. I remember trying a CA monster (usually referred to as Boredom incarnate) and, besides blasting the resource mark a decade in advance, the damn critters kept overflowing available space, raking in the techs, and getting permaforms, making for a nice fun. Smile



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Testbeds Fri, 12 August 2005 05:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
killerk is currently offline killerk

 
Civilian

Messages: 3
Registered: July 2005
Location: Singapore

I see... thanks..
haha this is like my 10th game playing stars and i'm managed to reach 19k by 2447 using a CA i designed in a small packed universe.. with 3 expert AI.. the AI is pretty weak.

I was just wondering.. how do you get manage to research armageddons by 2460.. i'm only at level 13 tech in weapons at 2447.. with other techs at an average of 10 each? What sort of testbed do you use. No computers? Large Packed uni?

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Re: Testbeds Fri, 12 August 2005 06:13 Go to previous message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
killerk wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 11:39

haha this is like my 10th game playing stars and i'm managed to reach 19k by 2447 using a CA i designed in a small packed universe.. with 3 expert AI.. the AI is pretty weak.

Show us here your design and how you run the colony drive and we'll be able to point on things you should/shouldn't do. However for the start you should read the aricle "Tutorial - How to get over 25k resources by 2450 (BEGINNER)" in "Stars! - Must Know" section. Just to let you know: 25k by 2450 is nowadays almost required for a race to be playable in intermediate games.
BR, Iztok

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