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What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 07:43 Go to next message
Steve1

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia

What to do?[ 32 votes ]
1. Advise the host via email 6 / 19%
2. Advise the player via ingame message 4 / 13%
3. Don't advise anyone 0 / 0%
4. Don't advise anyone and note down all the details 0 / 0%
5. Continue to note down details of their ship movements, etc. but not advise anyone 1 / 3%
6. Continue to note down details of their ship movements, etc. after advising either the host and/or the player 0 / 0%
7. Share the player's details with everyone else 0 / 0%
8. Share the player's details only with my allies 0 / 0%
9. Observe that the player's race is unpassworded and quickly look away so that you don't inadvertantly notice any details 1 / 3%
10. I would never check to see if other player's races were unpassworded 17 / 53%
11. Snicker as you gleefully take in as much as you can about the race 2 / 6%
12. Request to be recused from the game as unfortunately you may have gained information about another race that you shouldn't possess 0 / 0%
13. Other. Please be specific in your posting 1 / 3%

Let's suppose that you're a player in a Stars game and you decide to check whether everyone has passworded their race.
If you then found an unpassworded race what would you do?


[Updated on: Tue, 21 September 2004 10:03]

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve1

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia
I request that you also list your thoughts and reasons for voting the way you chose.
Perhaps you would vote differently given other circumstances or perhaps you would be consistant in your choices.


[Updated on: Tue, 21 September 2004 08:43]

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donjon is currently offline donjon

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 808
Registered: November 2002
Location: Benque Viejo del Carmen, ...

Chuckle...

This actually happened to me in one game.
Personally, as a host it is grounds for a regen... If it is discovered by one, you can be assured it has been discovered by others who are NOT so honest...

I now require all races to be passworded upon submission and if it is going to slow me down (ie. it will take a lot of time to get a resubmitted race) I will password them myself and let the player know.

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 403
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

I voted to inform the host.

It's a meta-game error, not an in-game error. Therefore it shouldn't be used/available as an advantage to other players.

The host is informed since it becomes *their* problem to deal with. They get to decide whether or not they believe others have noticed the same detail. They get to decide what consequences the discovery should entail.

It's generally a good idea for the host to check out races received to verify that a password was added. In a few that I have hosted that was not the case - and I informed the players and/or put a password on the race before the game was generated.

- Kurt

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK
I can't believe people would be sad enough to try and load other players turn files.
We're meant to be playing a game.

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Orca

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003
Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ...
Advise both host and player, and suggest a regen if the game isn't very far in. If it is far in, you'll have to discuss it with the host and see...


Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EDog is currently offline EDog

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 417
Registered: November 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA
If you're at all a scrupulous player in the first place, you wouldn't be checking other players' files. In my book, that is cheating, because you are attempting to gain an unfair advantage. Even if you don't act on the information you discover, the fact that you went looking for it in the first place makes you a cheater as far as I am concerned. Players should have no business looking at anyone else's files. It's the equivalent of looking over a neighbor's shoulder while you're taking a test.

If you did this, shame on you! Mad

EDog


[Updated on: Tue, 21 September 2004 11:07]




http://ianthealy.com
Born, grew up, became an adventurer

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Orca

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003
Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ...
EDog wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 08:06


If you did this, shame on you! Mad


I wouldn't go that far. If you did it, then used it, then yes - that's cause for concern. If you opened it on the first turn of the game and immediately reported it to both player and host, then no harm, no foul.



Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 12:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EDog is currently offline EDog

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 417
Registered: November 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA
I have to disagree. Why would you look at anyone else's .m file unless you were trying to gain an unfair advantage?

Sorry, but it's the intent that makes it cheating, not whether or not you act on what you learn.

EDog



http://ianthealy.com
Born, grew up, became an adventurer

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Steve1 wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 06:43

Let's suppose that you're a player in a Stars game and you decide to check whether everyone has passworded their race.
If you then found an unpassworded race what would you do?


I voted to inform the player via ingame message. I would not notify the host, as just because you are a host, doesn't mean you are honest.

In the reverse position, I would be very happy that this was pointed out to me. Further, I'd probably laugh myself silly for a few minutes. I also wouldn't hold it against the player if they anaylzed my turn, as long as they keep it to themselfs.

-Matt




Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
I'm not sure why someone would be checking to see is others have password protected their races. But, I have downloaded the wrong file and attempted to open it before so I based my vote on that scenario rather than that I was systematically attempting to open each player's file.

So, I agree with mlaub because it was not stipulated that the host is not playing. I would inform the player by email, rather than in-game mail, if that were a possibility. I'd delete the .M# file from my system.

Here is another and similar ethical conundrum:
An ally gives you his password so that you can fill in for him while he is on vacation. After he comes back you download his file and he has not changed the password. Do you tell him, or in this case is it his responsibility to change the password that he gave you?

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
I have never specially checked if all the races are passworded or no, however i once found it out by accidentally downloading wrong file. Actually the host mixed up who had what #.

It was first turn so I demanded restart.

Now ... if i think about it ... that may be good habit to check if all are passworded at turn 0 or no! After all ... someone may take advantage from such a situation.

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 514
Registered: November 2003
Location: UK
In my first ever Autohost game years ago all the players were emailed the (unpassworded) host file along with the other game files at the start of the game.

Several of us informed the host, who immediately restarted the game and sent out replacement game files. However, we weren't given an opportunity to change our race files.

So, I knew that I could use the original game files to run a parallel game myself and scout around to find all the other player's Homeworlds and get their hab centres and check for clues about their PRT/LRTs.

The question was, should I do it ?

I asked a friend of mine, who had been playing other PBEMs for years, what I should do about it. His advice was that I should assume everyone else was taking advantage of this, and that I'd be putting myself at an unfair disadvantage if I didn't.

What are everyone's thoughts on this situation which I think is much less black-and-white ?

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Staz wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 15:17


What are everyone's thoughts on this situation which I think is much less black-and-white ?


The Host always has this choice, unless he sends a def file to Ron. This fact does not make it the right thing to do. I have had the opportunity in the past, but did not exploit it. There isn't much you can learn by this method, that you can't learn in-game if you pay attention. Plus, its unsportsman like conduct... Razz

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
Staz wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 22:17

I asked a friend of mine, who had been playing other PBEMs for years, what I should do about it. His advice was that I should assume everyone else was taking advantage of this, and that I'd be putting myself at an unfair disadvantage if I didn't.


I would not be surprised if some people take advantage of such mistakes. Sure not most of them. How otherwise can there be duels? Or hosts who play and lose?

If i think of it now i have never made too big a secret of lot of things people seemingly love to hide:
1) what is my races PRT;
2) what planets it like;
3) where is its HW;
4) if it has advanced scanners or remote mining;
5) if it has odd cheap tech (like propulsion or electronics cheap).

It must be serious weakness that i would try to hide... like HP econ, techlessness or weapon tech expensive, BET, alternator mines (16/15/7) or 12% growth. I dont think people cheat so lot. After all ... i often win the game. Cool

I remember the times when there was no autohost and hosts still lost games.


[Updated on: Tue, 21 September 2004 19:03]

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Re: What to do ??? Tue, 21 September 2004 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scottrick49 is currently offline scottrick49

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 98
Registered: August 2003
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact the host.

I would do this or email the player directly. But since there was not an option for emailing the player, only ingame message (which is fairly slow) I would email the host for quick action.



scottrick

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Re: What to do ??? Wed, 22 September 2004 00:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kang is currently offline Kang

 
Senior Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 87
Registered: April 2003
My thoughts on previous post in no particular order, and in the question that started this whole thread to be gin with..

1) the only time I systematically checked for passwords was when I hosted a game.
I took each race file as it was sent to me, renamed it with the players name, created a test game with that race file to verify it was not corrupt, and then I attempted to open the file. If it opened I e-mailed the sender and `requested a password protected race. Once the race was good, I added it to the game file directory, and updated the *.def file with the player race, # of players, and then updated my info file for sending to autohost.

I don't expect every host to do this, although it would be nice.

2) IF I did discover another player's race file unpassword protected, I would inform him as quickly as possible, e-mail if available or ingame if not. I would also inform the host unless I suspected him of being less than honest (In which case I probably wouldn't be playing..)

3) If this happened to me, I would hope the person who discovered this informed me, and that he did not disect the information available to him. If he did, I might not be quick to trust him, but would probably not hold it against him too much, after all he did let me know of my error.

Other musings..
I don't consider NAS to be a big disadvantage, even when your opponent knows you have it. By the time your advanced scanners let you get a pen scan on me, it is fairly cheap to keep tabs on you as well.

Tricks to hide race traits and PRT. Some games I am fanatical about creating a deception as to my PRT, PRT some games I am blatent about letting others know what it is. It depends on the game and my mood when I start. I've hidden a 2I HE for 30+ years, and have hidden an SS until I had Elect 13. Other games my only ship designs early on are based on the mini-minelayer hull.

Kang

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Re: What to do ??? Wed, 22 September 2004 03:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
Quote:

Other musings..
I don't consider NAS to be a big disadvantage, even when your opponent knows you have it. By the time your advanced scanners let you get a pen scan on me, it is fairly cheap to keep tabs on you as well.

Tricks to hide race traits and PRT. Some games I am fanatical about creating a deception as to my PRT, PRT some games I am blatent about letting others know what it is. It depends on the game and my mood when I start. I've hidden a 2I HE for 30+ years, and have hidden an SS until I had Elect 13. Other games my only ship designs early on are based on the mini-minelayer hull.


NAS vs no NAS posts are moved to the Academy in a new thread.

Should anyone want to discuss the hiding of PRT/LRTs please start a new thread.

mch,
mod.a.w.


[Updated on: Wed, 22 September 2004 03:06]

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Re: What to do ??? Wed, 22 September 2004 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land
The few times that I have hosted a game, I checked the players' race files before gen time to make sure they were password protected and that they were not corrupt.

I immediately notified the player of the difficulty and allowed them to "fix" the problem before I genned the game.

I figured it only took a very short period of time that prevented painful problems later on. But, I also read the instructions before all else fails, which seems to make me a freak of nature anyway. Laughing

A truth that has been stated is that the follow-up action on this is definitely up to the host. If I were the host, and this is my own humble but opinionated opinion, I would consult with the player who forgot to password protect his race file and see what he/she wanted to do. Some people might be cool with it, set a password, and continue with the game (everyone does know you can do that, right?).

Sure, the player who discovered the open turn file can use that information obtained if he wishes to do so; but in-game information will quickly become dated. Race configuration information is his forever, if he chooses to keep it and try to use it to his advantage, but that is about it unless I'm over-looking something else. Dunce

Other people, like me for instance, would be too paranoid for that and insist on regenning the game (after I had created a new race, of course). A host who refused to do so would then leave it to the player to suffer through or drop out. Rude and crude, but that's the way life can be at times. It just sort of depends on what type of host you want to be. Do you defend the rights of the one, the rights of the many, or your right to host the game YOUR way? So many choices!

Talk to your players via email and find out what they think should happen, if that is the sort of host you want to be. Those who choose to not respond are voting "don't care". If you choose to be a dictator, then do what you want and let the chips fall where they may. Remember that the word "dictator" is not inherently evil, unless you actually prepend it with the word "evil". Wink


(This does not mean that I am a communist, socialist, or any other "ist" you might think of. I'm a voting member of a constitutional republic and proud of it!) Yes

But whatever you decide to do this time around, Steve1, I would recommend you check the race files before game genning from now on. You'll be much happier and your hosting life will be much easier to deal with.


My my 2 cents worth. I hope it helps, but I fear all I did was muddy up the water for you.

The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: What to do ??? Wed, 22 September 2004 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve1

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia
Quote:

But whatever you decide to do this time around, Steve1, I would recommend you check the race files before game genning from now on. You'll be much happier and your hosting life will be much easier to deal with.

Actually you made an incorrect assumption there. Surprised
I'm not hosting a game and have only ever done so once when I took over briefly as a replacement. Razz
The poll and questions pertaining to such, are more to do with players sometimes forgetting to utilise their password than anything else.
I am interested to note the greatly varied responces though.

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Re: What to do ??? Wed, 22 September 2004 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Crusader wrote on Wed, 22 September 2004 14:52


Other people, like me for instance, would be too paranoid for that and insist on regenning the game (after I had created a new race, of course). A host who refused to do so would then leave it to the player to suffer through or drop out. Rude and crude, but that's the way life can be at times. It just sort of depends on what type of host you want to be. Do you defend the rights of the one, the rights of the many, or your right to host the game YOUR way? So many choices!



Regenning the game because *you* screwed up is not a given, IMO. If *you* had followed game directions, then you would have made sure your race is password protected before submitting it. Right? With this in mind, and the fact that it would be a inconvenience to everyone else that didn't screw it up, I'd take it in stride and continue the game if the host/player that found it actually contacted me in the first few years of the game. Just that action pretty much indicates that the host/player will be fair about the whole deal. I certainly would not expect that the game be regenned! That takes time, and ends up wasting other peoples time, including Ron's (Thanks for providing AH, Ron!).

This is not "Rude and crude", *that* is life. The host's decision should be based on the good of the overall game, not 1 person. OTOH, if that 1 person decided to "publish" the races details and generally be an ass, then yes, regen.

Not trying to offend here, but your attitude seems very self centered. I equate it to wanting a turn regened because *you* screwed up your orders at some critical point in the game.

Quote:


Talk to your players via email and find out what they think should happen, if that is the sort of host you want to be. Those who choose to not respond are voting "don't care".



I have hosted several games. No response does not necessarily mean "don't care". You will most likely get an ear(eye?) full after you decide to regen...

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: What to do ??? Thu, 23 September 2004 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land
Quote:

Not trying to offend here, but your attitude seems very self centered.

Laughing

It's all about me. Deal with it! Whip



Nothing for now.

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Re: What to do ??? Thu, 23 September 2004 11:58 Go to previous message
Steve1

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia
Btw, I meant to provide an extra option that combines both #1 & #2, as follows:
Quote:

Advise the host via email & Advise the player via ingame message

That's the option I would have chosen, but somehow left it out???

It's too late to add it now because lots of people have already voted. If you want that option you'll have to choose "other"!

I deliberately didn't list an option of "Advise the host via email & Advise the player via email" because, I note that in most scenarios, the ability to directly contact other players is disabled on the game page.

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