Who do you attack first?[ 41 votes ]
1.	CA	6 / 15%
2.	SS	2 / 5%
3.	IS	1 / 2%
4.	IT	0 / 0%
5.	AR	14 / 34%
6.	HE	11 / 27%
7.	PP	0 / 0%
8.	JOAT	0 / 0%
9.	WM	2 / 5%
10.	SD	5 / 12%

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Please help me you say SS is first target, but i expect CA will be as likely target to stop monstering, then AR is good early target without resistance(and end game dominance), HE is nice for no gates and WM will be attacked if the chance given before they trade mines, as defences are weak and they should not good at offense. That makes 5 PRTs interesting(not necessarily easy) to attack early. Seems to me that advanced players always engage half their neighbours soon. Can't make sense, what PRTs realy are first target? I will start vote in Academy. Carn

Yes it was actually me that said SS is the first to be attacked, but I'll re-phrase that and say "amongst the first" instead. I voted AR in your poll simply because they're such easy targets in the early game. I also get quite annoyed when their nuisance colony ships start bombing my planets (inadvertantly or not), so I guess it's payback for being different to us

Personally I'd rather (if possible) keep a WM as an ally or maintain a NAP with them, at least until the end game.
In the end game WM is weak (as a PRT) comparitively to other races. They still get basic defences at the start (same as everyone else) and minefields aren't generally so significant in the early game. IMO a WM is more likely in the early years to initiate the attack than the other way around. They need to gain ground quickly at the start or else they're unlikely to survive.

CA I wouldn't count if you're talking about higher level games because it's far more likely to be banned than any other race.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 13:23]

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I cant vote here. If this game was so easy that major strategy decisions could made simply by PRT it was uninteresting.

There are lots of different reasons and considerations why and if to attack someone early. Only some of these are connected to race design and some are not. Most obvious:

a) It is weak early and so it is easy to kill it in a profitable way. Its possible to find some companions into a profitable war. In that category the winners usually are SS, PP, AR and HE. Also most HP-style designs.

b) It may get quite painful to fight it when it starts to fight us in later stages and so noone objects if we kill it now. In that category the winners are WM, SS and SD. Also IS if you are SS.

c) Its economy (minerals and/or resources) will probably grow out of hand in later stages and so most agreee its safer to kill it early. In that category the winners are AR, CA and HE. Also most HP-style rasses.

d) There is race is in corner and looks quite agressive so it will search ways out of it to win. You are one of two his neighbours. So join him against the other of his neighbours since cornered rat makes firce ally.

e) This race has same PRT (with useful toys) as you. So why you need other SS, SD, IS or CA into the game? Right, kill it.

f) This race has almost exactly same hab as you. All his planets look nice greens to you. You can not make any joint military operations with it without dispute about who gets what. Sure, kill it and take these good planets.

g) This race is in war on another front. Can it hold its own if you too join the slugfest? Rarely. So why not to go and try it out.

h) This guy misses turns and plays quite lousily. Also his ship designs are inefficent. Why to wait unil he drops out? Lets show the good sides of that wonderful game to him.

Oh and i can go on and on here....

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Kotk wrote on Thu, 02 September 2004 12:58

Oh and i can go on and on here....

...But please don't. I think it was more of a hypothetical question, with an assumption of "all other things being equal" type deal...I could be wrong, tho. However, since no 2 games or situations are ever the same in stars, that's the only approach that is meaningful.

-Matt

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Yes sir ... thats why i warned i can go on. But how can all the things ever be equal?

Sure i would like to kill AR or HE or WM for a variety. Unfortunatelly theres 2 IT-s and one SD, IS or JOAT almost always to pick from. So i take one of the IT-s out usually.

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[Updated on: Fri, 03 September 2004 11:36]

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Well if I'm SS then if I can't make IS ally, then I attack him,and if he is not destroyed then he is crippled and tachyons are just dream for him and rest of the galaxy.

Easier said than done.
IS races have far more starting points than an SS and can be quite powerful in the right hands (as can SS).
Yes you're right though, if you want to knock out an IS race the very start of the game is the best time.

I usually find with SS that it always seems you're trying to catch up. You're mostly up there with tech, due to the SS' unique spying ability, but generally well behind in resources. SS generally isn't as good at direct confrontation, but far more able to cripple an enemy by stealth. Make them weak enough and then destroy is the answer (usually).

Keep in mind though, there's quite often more than 1 IS in a game. I recently played as a fill in for a couple of weeks, where IT and CA were banned. It was a large sparse universe and admittedly well suited to IS. Of the 12 races, only two chose WM and all the rest were IS

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Steve1 wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 12:02

Easier said than done. IS races have far more starting points than an SS and can be quite powerful in the right hands (as can SS). Yes you're right though, if you want to knock out an IS race the very start of the game is the best time.

SS+NAS is close enough to IS. But why people always think that SS will send them out to worse economy, they can have smaller habs for example.

So in early stage of game 75% is good enough, so before capturing border colonies, you should send some destroyers inside enemy territory, and try to coordinate destroyers positioning inside enemy space with your troops force, I know that you would have to send about 3 times colonists as the enemy have to conquer a planet, but his counter attacks will be crippled by your fast destroyers. So his losses will compensate with your to conquer his worlds. In the mean time he will enforce his convoys, and in the mean time you build more destroyers, and keeping your offensive.

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SS+NAS is close enough to IS. But why people always think that SS will send them out to worse economy, they can have smaller habs for example.

I wasn't particularly specific about what could be done with the extra points. IS could do the same by having a smaller hab too and then still have more spare points than the SS for installations.

If IS also chooses NAS they end up with a whole heap more points than SS and they also have the advantage of the frigate horde (using Croby sharmour and a green laser of your preferred type).

Now NAS for an IS race admittedly means that you have no pen scanners available, but these can often be traded for and if you can't get any, then a skilled player will constantly ping the enemy positions. Against SS you normally need to do that anyway and to be honest I rather like the double distance scanning of NAS. If you then trade for pen scanners it's an extra bonus.

Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy playing SS more than IS. It's a very cool race.

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My understanding of SS is that a suprise attack that steals some ecconomy (factories, mines) can help make up for being eccon behind. This may mean the 'first attack' is not in the beginning ut later in the game when bombers are affordable.

Steve1 likes SS better, but of the 2 I would like IS better. I would rather be open and honest than sneaky.

...

I voted for CA. My theory is CA has an unfair advantage if allowed in game and if left alone may beome an unstoppable monster.

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Quote:

Steve1 likes SS better, but of the 2 I would like IS better. I would rather be open and honest than sneaky.

Ah so you openly admit to being racially prejudiced against the poor old SS peoples

We shall advise all the SS peoples in all the universes and throughout all dimensions to send their best stealth bombers to your HW

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Seems AR and HE have to be paranoid, CA is just dangerous and IS will have problems with SS, if they are the only IS.

But who is the joker selecting SD?

Carn

[Updated on: Fri, 03 September 2004 20:51]

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Carn wrote on Sat, 04 September 2004 02:49

But who is the joker selecting SD?

Anyone who hates MM may find a neighbour who hates MM too. If there is nearby SD to them they probably marry to genocide that SD before 2450.

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Kotk wrote on Sat, 04 September 2004 03:24

Carn wrote on Sat, 04 September 2004 02:49 But who is the joker selecting SD? Anyone who hates MM may find a neighbour who hates MM too. If there is nearby SD to them they probably marry to genocide that SD before 2450.

Ok, this is an argument.

Carn

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For something to think about, an AR with enough of a grudge to keep playing and even one orbital coloniser and 1000 pop surviving can be like an ace in the hole as friend if the game lasts long enough for minerals to be a problem.

Multilis you really do think outside the square.
Someone once said something about you using "newbie tactics", but I'd call it more like pulling every trick out of the hat

[Updated on: Sat, 04 September 2004 02:31]

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If you play HE, like multilis, then there is no much chance killing anyone early anyway. Best early strategy for HE is defensive. If you can, ally with everyone. Kill only the one who you or your allies cant live with.

As for AR... until it has at least one HW it can win the game solo.

[Updated on: Sat, 04 September 2004 13:50]

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How about that.
No one (so far) has chosen SS to be taken out first and with 19 votes already in, things are looking pretty good.

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Carn wrote on Sat, 04 September 2004 02:49

But who is the joker selecting SD?

Oh, that's me. Just because I think that SD is one of the mighiest races in the game (if played well of course). So, if I have the possibility, I'll destroy them as soon as possible.

I don't understand why someone would vote for WM - they are strong in the beginning and quite weak in the end. So, if he doesn't threaten you, I don't see a reason to attack him, unless you are simply much stronger than him (but then, the PRT doesn't really matter any more)
WM has no mine fields (okay, he can trade for them), weak defenses (later in the game) and chaff that can be easily countered (they are too fast and get into range of Gatling Guns in the first round). So, you just have to wait and kill him easily in the end game...

Andreas / wizard

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