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Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » How do U use Boosters?  () 3 Votes
Re: How do U use Boosters? Thu, 26 June 2003 04:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

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Abaddon wrote on Tue, 24 June 2003 04:35

Would it be a silly question to ask when boosters are at their most useful?

The keyword here is Logistic. In short: every time when my fleet embarks on a long journey that would last longer without additional fuel. Regarding time frame of the game I use boosters in opening/early mid game to move pop/germ around. In later stages there's usually enough refuel bases I don't need to use them. But I always keep a spare SFX or two at most developed planets to deliver fuel to (soon to be) stranded ships.

BR, Iztok

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Thu, 26 June 2003 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

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Abaddon wrote on Tue, 24 June 2003 03:35

Would it be a silly question to ask when boosters are at their most useful?
I only seem to use them to increase the range / speed of colony ships / assaulting troop transports....
What does anyone else use them for?


When I use them, which is not always, but when I do it is always with the intent to keep pop out of space as much as possible and on a planet where they can be growing and adding resources to the economy. When playing a HG race that is not one of the "economic" races, then I consider it absolutely imperative that I keep my population in space for a minimum amount of time. Cutting just one year off of travel time really adds up when you are talking about pop-balancing for the 1st 50 years of a game.

Really, about the only time that I don't consider this imperative is when I'm playing an IS race, since the pop grows in space anyways; but even then it is not a good idea to just let a pop shipment lollygag along through the galaxy at a leisurely pace.

Any other use of boosters would be a matter of ... well ... opportunity I suppose. Getting the minerals to a MT on time, before it passes me by, for instance. Catching an incoming enemy fleet before it can do too much damage, or catching one attempting to run away even.

But in the final analysis, the entire rationale for the existance of boosters is to supply the fuel needed to keep pop runs as quick as possible.

One small cavaet to all this, and perhaps your mileage DOES vary Laughing , is that in my own experience, I have never gotten the whole concept of boosters to work well unless I was using IFE and the good, ol' Fuel Mizer engine. The gains of trying to use boosters with the DD7 engine, as an example, is so minimal as to be useless. This may be an obvious point to all of you, but just on the off-chance that it prevent someone from trying to use boosters in a useless situation I have decided to mention it anyway. If I don't take IFE, then I just simply don't worry about using boosters. I'll build SFX's once they are available, though, just to make sure that I have ready fuel for my battle fleets, or that rare, really long-range freighter run.

Counter-point? my 2 cents

Respectfully,
The Crusader Angel



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Re: How do U use Boosters? Fri, 27 June 2003 02:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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Crusader wrote on Thu, 26 June 2003 14:11

One small cavaet to all this, and perhaps your mileage DOES vary Laughing , is that in my own experience, I have never gotten the whole concept of boosters to work well unless I was using IFE and the good, ol' Fuel Mizer engine. The gains of trying to use boosters with the DD7 engine, as an example, is so minimal as to be useless.

Good point, Crusader. Certainly one worthy of mention.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Fri, 27 June 2003 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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However the obvious counter example to that is IS, oddly.

Even without IFE you have your PRT fuel boosters very early.

Either take them along for the ride or build small groups of them and place them at strategic points - like 81 l.y. from a planet you are filling.
That way you split the journey into 3 parts
HW (or breeder) - refuel
refuel - target - refuel (no refuelling at target unless ISB)
refuel - HW
That should get you at least 6 years at Warp 9.
Even with ISB it should be useful for outward laden trips.

(p.s. the idea of putting them in space is not mine, someone else published it and I like it, so credit to them)

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Fri, 27 June 2003 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
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mazda wrote on Fri, 27 June 2003 06:24

Even without IFE you have your PRT fuel boosters very early.


Excellent post, and a cool tactic for an IS player to use.

But without IFE you do have to research prop very fast and very early to get a Ram Scoop engine that will compare to the Fuel Mizer. The Radiating Hydro-Ram Scoop is a killer, literally, and at warp 9 uses fuel at over 400% consumption rate. It is not until the Sub-galactic Fuel Scoop at Prop 8 that you get a fuel consumption curve similar to the Fuel Mizer.

Plus, if you take NRSE to pay for the IFE, then you still wind up with the DD7 as your prime mover engine. It takes a LOT of fuel to allow you to speed that engine up to warp 9.

And the point of the boosters is to get pop moving fast at a time when economic growth is critical, which is early in the game, which means you would really prefer to have the Fuel Mizer. You don't HAVE to, but the Fuel Mizer sure does make your life easier.

But as I have stated before, taking the easy way is just not the cowboy way. Yey

Thanks for your insight.

The Crusader Angel



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Re: How do U use Boosters? Mon, 30 June 2003 09:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

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A quick question -

Just how many "specialty boosters" are there? I know about the fuel transport, ofc, and the trick with using the SD's mine layer hull for a booster also.

Are there others that are just not occuring to me? (very plausible)

The Crusader Angel



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Re: How do U use Boosters? Mon, 30 June 2003 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
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Crusader wrote on Mon, 30 June 2003 09:32

A quick question -

Just how many "specialty boosters" are there? I know about the fuel transport, ofc, and the trick with using the SD's mine layer hull for a booster also.

Are there others that are just not occuring to me? (very plausible)

The Crusader Angel


HE booster using a fuel tank on a mini-colonizer with the Settler's Delight engine. (I generically refer to them as "Gas Spores")

- Kurt



Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
- Groucho Marx

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Tue, 01 July 2003 07:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgt. Bulldog is currently offline Sgt. Bulldog

 
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Damn, OWK! That was my line! Cool

Anyway - every booster type - even the small ones and starting stuff - is usefull. Just remember to split them off as you go, according to the level of fuel consumed. Send them back to the base. There's no point in travelling around with deadweight.

Another use of boosters is as midway refeulingpoints. This is especially usefull if you have the FM. Ie. at a planet or some other point on the way to a far point, set two booster to alternate going back and forth to the refueling point and something x lightyears out. Where x is the optimum fuel generating capacity for the engine. Send convoys to rendezvous and give them the fuel, letting the boosters continue on their looped task.

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Tue, 01 July 2003 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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mazda wrote on Fri, 27 June 2003 07:24

However the obvious counter example to that is IS, oddly.

Even without IFE you have your PRT fuel boosters very early.

Either take them along for the ride or build small groups of them and place them at strategic points - like 81 l.y. from a planet you are filling.
That way you split the journey into 3 parts
HW (or breeder) - refuel
refuel - target - refuel (no refuelling at target unless ISB)
refuel - HW
That should get you at least 6 years at Warp 9.
Even with ISB it should be useful for outward laden trips.


Ekhm... Ever checked how much fuel uses a full PVT with standard engine going warp-9? For 3 full W-9 jumps you need to add a SFX or 3 FX to get there and return with the same speed. And you can use FXes as "gas stations" only each third year (+200 new fuel per turn). For a fast expansion you need A LOT of fuel (resources and minerals spent on FX/SFX) or FM. It's your preference to decide what's cheaper.
BR, Iztok


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Re: How do U use Boosters? Tue, 01 July 2003 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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iztok wrote on Tue, 01 July 2003 13:53

Ekhm... Ever checked how much fuel uses a full PVT with standard engine going warp-9? For 3 full W-9 jumps you need to add a SFX or 3 FX to get there and return with the same speed. And you can use FXes as "gas stations" only each third year (+200 new fuel per turn). For a fast expansion you need A LOT of fuel (resources and minerals spent on FX/SFX) or FM. It's your preference to decide what's cheaper.
BR, Iztok


Sorry.
Yes, I should have been more specific.
I wasn't comparing FX with FM, so to speak.
I was suggesting that exports made a useful booster even without IFE and perhaps that exports sat in a stationary place could be as effective (or maybe moreso) than exports paired up with ships.

For non-IFE, evidence that using boosters is better than not using boosters will have to compare the cost of the boosters required to the loss of resources with pop in transit longer and the possible cost of extra PVT's needed (if we try and fill the planet at the same pace as booster assisted trips).

Regarding the comparison of stationary boosters with moving ones then I suggest the following :-

For short journeys then it is better to have them move with the PVT's.
The major factor is the refuelling of the exports fuel capacity at the end of each trip.
This more than offsets the fuel consumed by moving the export at warp 9 and the fact that effectively the export doesn't generate any fuel whilst at a refuelling starbase.

For longer trips it is less clear.
I find that a half full PVT with IS colonists can go 162 l.y. at warp 9, refuel at a group of exports, etc. etc., and get back at warp 9. So 243 l.y. both ways at warp 9.
A half full PVT with a single export can't make it 3 years at warp 9 and get back at warp 9.
i.e. the fuel consumed by moving the export means that the pair of ships runs out of fuel before the trip ends.

It is close though.

Anyone else care to expand ?

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Tue, 01 July 2003 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

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mazda wrote on Tue, 01 July 2003 11:20

Anyone else care to expand ?


Not me, nuh-uh, no way - I'm building a 1WW and fergittin' about it! Laughing

Sorry. Sometimes I just can't stop myself. Embarassed

I finally get it now, guys. I'm slow, but I do eventually get there. So I will say that, yes, you can get boosters to work without IFE. That trick with stationary or looping refueling points/stations is one that I have never tried. Using fuel transports as stationary refueling stations in space is a neat trick. In my defense, I'm always testing expansion strategies with WM and SS (mostly SS).

I decided a long time ago that with IS, I would just optimize the starting # of loaded colonists and let 'em grow to fill the space provided by the time they arrive at their destination no matter how long it takes. I just build more ftrs/pvts and partially load 'em 'til I have my pop on the HW at its prescribed hold level.

I also almost always take the IFE/NRSE combo. I'm a lazy bum, I am!

Always looking to learn more,
The Crusader Angel



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Re: How do U use Boosters? Tue, 01 July 2003 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boneandrew is currently offline boneandrew

 
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Boy, you guys sure have a lot more about this game worked out than I do! Shocked

A question regarding not having the fuel mizer: As the point of boosters is to keep your fleets moving as close to warp 9 as possible, do you keep using the QJ5 engine for a while because it's cheap and gets about the same fuel usage at warp 9 until the trans-galactic drive? Or do you perfer to use the most current engines to get the better efficiency at lower warps when convenient (like moving empty freighters)?

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Tue, 01 July 2003 22:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

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boneandrew wrote on Tue, 01 July 2003 20:13

Boy, you guys sure have a lot more about this game worked out than I do! Shocked


Yeah, baby! Hang wit' us fer a while an' we'll make sure you become the same drooling, vacant-eyed, monosyllabic, xenophobic, genius that we all are. Balloon

As for your very legitimate question. I don't know. I always take IFE except for a few time in test beds. Then, I pretty much stayed with the QJ5 until I got to the DLL7, and I pretty much ignored using boosters at all. But it was just during testbeds, and my growth never quite made it, if I remember correctly.

Respectfully,
The Crusader Angel


[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2003 11:34]




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Re: How do U use Boosters? Wed, 02 July 2003 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1192
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Hi!
boneandrew wrote on Tue, 01 July 2003 21:13

A question regarding not having the fuel mizer: As the point of boosters is to keep your fleets moving as close to warp 9 as possible, do you keep using the QJ5 engine for a while because it's cheap and gets about the same fuel usage at warp 9 until the trans-galactic drive? Or do you perfer to use the most current engines to get the better efficiency at lower warps when convenient (like moving empty freighters)?

If it is seriously needed I'd buy 2 or 4 med freighters with QJ-5 (a reasonably close good planet), but I usually wait for DLL-7 (and 100/250 gates!) before I start building cargo ships. Those gates are excellent for returning ships and fuel delivery. With building them early on at some strategic points I'm able to reuse freighters more often (build less of them), decrease fuel delivery problems and generally become more mobile then opponents.

OTOH, if I don't decide for IFE I also don't take NRSE. In that case I usually take prop normal, so TGFS-9 scoop is about 5k far. Excellent engine for a long time and almost everything.

For TGD-9 standard engine the only hull I'd put it on is large freighter, but even that I'd do reluctantly. That engine's so expensive and heavy I'd rather wait for IS-10 and forget about designing new cargo ship until nubians.
BR, Iztok

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Wed, 02 July 2003 09:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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boneandrew wrote on Wed, 02 July 2003 02:13


A question regarding not having the fuel mizer: As the point of boosters is to keep your fleets moving as close to warp 9 as possible, do you keep using the QJ5 engine for a while because it's cheap and gets about the same fuel usage at warp 9 until the trans-galactic drive?


It isn't always about warp 9.
Most trips will have segments slower than warp 9.
A distance of 120 l.y. will probably be best at Warp 7 then Warp 9. The DLL7 could make the difference between coming back in 2 years or 3 years.

Go for the higher tech engine sooner.
Prop is often the second tech after Con that I go for.
(depending on PRT, density, etc.)
Any ships with QJ5 engines will rapidly find themselves included in colonising runs to increase the initial drop size.




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Re: How do U use Boosters? Wed, 02 July 2003 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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boneandrew wrote on Wed, 02 July 2003 03:13



A question regarding not having the fuel mizer: As the point of boosters is to keep your fleets moving as close to warp 9 as possible, do you keep using the QJ5 engine for a while because it's cheap and gets about the same fuel usage at warp 9 until the trans-galactic drive? Or do you perfer to use the most current engines to get the better efficiency at lower warps when convenient (like moving empty freighters)?


The QJ5 can be made to play good enough with heavy MM. You should go warp 7 most of the time (49ly steps), only one burst make at higher warps if you got fuel for that. For example if you got to fly 178 ly to go you go 49+49+80 ly warp 7 warp 7 and warp 9 (probably taking the warp 9 section first and returning to base with the boosters). The 64+64+50 (warp 8 all the road)will take lot more fuel.

DLL7 is good at warp 7. At warp 9 it is not better than QJ5. But it can carry lot of cargo at warp 7 so you can use 1 cargo pod instead of fuel pod at privateer and not to worry about boosters... just go warp 7.

Radioactive Ram is first almost warp 9 capable engine but you need prop 6 and odd radiation hab or radiation immunity for carrying your with pop that.

Generally without fuel mizer you are in trouble with your expansion program. IT or HE can live without it rest of races have to take ISB for cheaper planet-hopping or research propulsion rather quick.

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Re: How do U use Boosters? Tue, 08 July 2003 06:30 Go to previous message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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I think when it comes to boosters almost everyone uses scouts.

The reasons being that they are available to all and are a little more disposable that most.

Destroyers with a little laser can make for excellent posturing... but accidental battles will leave your bluff wide open... and your race will get pounded.

As far as the engines are concerned the best thing to do would be to crack open Stars! editors and look a the fuel usage % stats. I think 110% is the optimum fuel usage so look for the cheapest engines that have reasonable usage at warp 8 or 8.

The DD7 is great if you want to go warp 7... if you want to go warp 9 forget it. Same applies with the warp 8 engine.

The rad ram scoop is fantastic. I love rad immunity (because no-one really takes it much) as well as crazy rad habs. Suure it don't do warp 9 so well... but it's assured warp 6.

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