Quote:

Until your breader fleet meets a small pack of Metas built to kill freighters (higher init than BB, few missles for the kill, high movement, no defences). *bam* One big, expensive resource down the tube, with the HE laughing as your big fleet was halted in their tracks. Meta morph is the perfect ship for killing your enemies' anti-planet ships (freighters, bombers).

My breeder fleet (hypothetically) has "freighter chaff" and I of course have jammers and/or shields on my Super freighters and because it's a breeder fleet, I have say 500 or more "freighter chaff".
Come and get me !!!

Report message to a moderator

Zoid wrote :

zoid wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 23:21

TheJorrus wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 07:30 Half the pop yes but! Only Half the pop needed get maximum resources too! I think you missed my point altogether. You're still assuming (like I always did) that an HE will produce twice as many colonists as any other PRT given the same growth rate if all other factors are equal, which isn't true. <EXAMPLE> HE: Growth rate = 10% (20% growth rate) CA: Growth rate = 10% (We could use any other PRT for comparison purpose but we'll use CA because it is 10 points cheaper than an HE PRT) No OBRM involved for either prt - Habitat value of a planet for each race 100%, both planets at 25% population cap for max growth. That's 125,000 for the HE, and 250,000 for the CA. HE growth per turn is 125,000(.2)=25,000 CA growth per turn is 250,000(.1)=25,000 There's no advantage there. Not for the HE anyways. If all other factory and mine settings are the same he's just producing half as much while maintaining the same growth rate. To change his economy, habitat, or any other settings to gain an advantage, the HE must give something else up, and the CA in question can do the exact same thing, get the same number of points to make exactly the same changes as an HE and gain the same outcome. No advantage for the HE, but disadvantage? You betcha!

Only read this at the moment and have to say something to it
I know you do freestyl math but :

If we would say that both race starts with 25% cab ( what will be a big advatage for the CA needs normaly 12 rounds he only 2 for cab 25% )
Yes send all the time away your kolonists , so on the new planet the CA kolonist grow with 2,500 Kolonists the HE with 5,000 kolonists , so the HE will always win this duell by outbreeding the CA and overrun them .
You are right the CA will have double the Resourses by a full outbuildet world but never will reach this against a race with 10% mor grow .

ccmaster

[Updated on: Sat, 17 April 2004 12:46]

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Fri, 23 April 2004 14:49]

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Sat, 24 April 2004 14:48]

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Sat, 24 April 2004 14:37]

Report message to a moderator

Pre-Formulated? Me? You must have me confused with some other guy. My speciality in Stars! is to come up with new and interesting ways to Oberlander myself

The only claim to fame that I have is successfully doing the math with Xdude's AFON games which are the only way that a 4% HE can get to play 600LB Gorilla any more.

But I'm muddling along with the RW kicking my tushy just like the rest of us non-experts.

Yes, alot of the work has been done but I'll testbed new races until I have some kind of feel for how they handle in the curves.

Practice, Practice is a good thing.

Here, if you want a duel I'll tell you right off that I'll use a 5% HE which is not something that I'd normally use in a duel. Build a race you like and lets kick each others tires.

[Updated on: Sat, 24 April 2004 21:37]

Report message to a moderator

Steve1 wrote on Sat, 24 April 2004 13:17

Of course many HE races are designed with 3-4% growth.

3% won't work, unless you are left alone a *really* long time. Trust me.



-Matt

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Sun, 25 April 2004 15:41]

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Sun, 25 April 2004 15:47]

Report message to a moderator

Carn wrote on Sun, 25 April 2004 21:46

@ ccmaster: Did you ever play/win game with 11-18% HE in a medium/large universe with >8 players? Carn

Hi ,

HE can be very strong in a medium or large game if you play normal/dense or Packed but you can not play them like normal races because of there high growth start to play them like a normal -f ( there growth is 22-36% ) so more then a normal -f can have . So take one imune wide habs and you will easy get 3500 resources in 2420 and havent build 1 faktory yet and can build cruser with tech 10 weapons . ( if you know how to play the He )

ccmaster

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

@ Mlaub

No you can definitly not win with a 4% HE in games Expert players play . So it is usless you will be crushed before the year 2440 and compleat eliminated .
Because you are the nicesed target to all QS and -f races .
Your have no tech advanced to these races and not as many resources and or minerals as they have in the first 40 years .

And from year 2440 on you get a massive boost but will still need untill year 2450-60 to get even with them , and noone lets stay a HE alone for so a long time , if he wanna win


ccmaster

Report message to a moderator

ccmaster wrote on Mon, 26 April 2004 14:44

@ Mlaub No you can definitly not win with a 4% HE in games Expert players play . ccmaster

Heh. I tend to agree...and have posted on that topic. However, I have already won 2 of 3 such games with a 4% HE. That's a pretty good ratio, by anyones standards. So, you can draw your own conclusions here. I have already drawn mine.

I seem to recall that you were eliminated in SNIPER, long before the game was over. I also recall that you were playing a CA while I was playing a 4% HE. Please explain that!

-Matt

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

I also recall that you were playing a CA while I was playing a 4% HE. Please explain that!

LOL, even a newbie like me can explain it all!

True experts won't build destroyers because they will wait a few turns for tech for better cruisers.

True experts won't build cruisers but wait a few turns for battleships.

True experts won't build battleships because in a few turns nubs will come out.

True experts won't build early nubs when better tech nubs will soon become obsolete.

Now by this time everyone is sitting on huge piles of minerals and they are all teched out. Being true experts they all suprise each other by lobbing mineral packets, knowing the one who lobs first has the advantage...



So as you all now see, only a 4% 3i AR has a chance in a true expert game! If you don't agree, then your not a true expert.

My

Report message to a moderator

multilis wrote on Mon, 26 April 2004 17:14

If you don't agree, then your not a true expert.

Thanks for clearing that up. I almost considered myself an expert there. Your concise synapsis of the cooperation certainly cloned that up for me.

Report message to a moderator

@ Multilis

Thanx for this information

@ Mlaub

yes , you can win a game with a 4% He when they all let you stay alone .
You can also win a game with a 8% CA , or something like this but normaly not .
My first game i won with a 4% HE , years ago , but in a normal game when your neighbours see that you are playing HE with such a solw grow they will eliminate you , maybe ally but a HE have not so much to give away .

Game sniper , I remeber that i play in a game named sniper but dont know what i played , or that you was in this game .
When was the game ?

ccmaster

Report message to a moderator

ccmaster wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 08:24

@ Mlaub yes , you can win a game with a 4% He when they all let you stay alone .

LOL...Diplomacy is part of the game! So is Bluff and Bluster!

Sure, I *want* to wait till nubs, but it doesn't always happen. Sometimes you have to build destroyers, cruisers, and BB's.

Quote:

My first game i won with a 4% HE , years ago , but in a normal game when your neighbours see that you are playing HE with such a solw grow they will eliminate you , maybe ally but a HE have not so much to give away .

Heh, maybe, but looking at SNIPER email, you told me to "watch out!" cause I was a "low growth WM with no minefields..." I wasn't a WM, so obviously you couldn't distinguish my PRT. I was trying to hide my PRT, ofc. It is truly ironic, though, that I attacked *you* (you playing a TT CA, me a 4% HE) before Y50 with cruisers and BB's, and you are claiming that that is impossible with a 4% HE.

There is more to it then that, as the game was essentially over by that time. Dan was dead, Kang and Kevin were allied, and no one else seemed to understand that without concerted effort and teamwork, that alliance would win. You were actually my play for trying to stay alive long enough to do something about them, but it failed, as Kang knew what would happen if they left me alone... Had some good battles, though. Would have liked a rematch against Kevin, after I have gone on my -f bender.

Quote:

Game sniper , I remeber that i play in a game named sniper but dont know what i played , or that you was in this game . When was the game ?

August - Dec, 2001. My email address was the same, I played as the Xeelee (my standard race name).

-Matt

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Hi!
Recenty I finished for the first time a game with the HE race. The game StarCrossed was set in small sparse universe, with stars remapped in huge X, and with 4 players, each starting in one leg of the X, with about 20 planets just for him. Slow tech, localy crowded stars, only one front to defend and relatively low number of planets per player (24) were IMO a perfect conditions to field a 3-immune HE, and to play the game to the end.

Race
Despite tech was slow I wanted good race speed, because one of players was a well-known veteran, that recently re-joined community, and I didn't want to be stomped too early. So instead my "standard" 5% PGR HE I've choosen a 6% one, with slightly toned-down factories and normal mines. Here it is:

Headache (HE)
ISb, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS
3-immune, 6%
1/1000
fac's: 14/9/20
mines: 10/3/21
weap & con cheap; en & elec normal, prop & bio expensive, no start @ 3
mandatory 50 RW points left spent on mineral concentrations.

Race's performance
In all my testbeds that race developed quite fast, compared to other PRTs. What I failed to notice was that it can operate only 1155 mines on a planet. That's quite low even for a -f race with half the economy of my race (2090 resources). I'll not say that I had serious problems with minerals (having every planet at 100% has it's advantages ), but when I started real shipbuilding (jugg & heavyBlaster BBs and lots of chaff) I noticed available minerals went out pretty quickly, and mining replenished them slowly (~300kT from an average maxxed planet at conc. 25). Even my HW had at turn 78, when opponents surrended, min. conc still at 19.

The other thing I had discovered too late was the compound rate of my 6% race and my "testbed standard" 5% race with 15/8/21 factories. 6% race had 20% better pop growth, but 5% race had 20% higher factories compound rate, 10% higher resource output AND significantly better mineral output.

Looking back at the game I've seen only one pop-drop planet ex

[Updated on: Wed, 13 December 2006 07:35]

Report message to a moderator

iztok wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 13:29

Headache (HE) ISb, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS 3-immune, 6% 1/1000 fac's: 14/9/20 mines: 10/3/21 weap & con cheap; en & elec normal, prop & bio expensive, no start @ 3 mandatory 50 RW points left spent on mineral concentrations.

HE pays more for better facs, so it makes more sense to drop cost to 8 and check g before taking efficiency above 12 or number above 16. That way you save points and get more and faster facs for the same germ.
e.g. 13/8/19/checked/12/3/15 is faster building facs and mines, has more germ shortterm(10 k pop produces 20% less minerals, but needs 30% less germ) and has more minerals long term.
The high fac number and efficiency is not good for 6% 3i HE as it cannot throw points around so much as the slower growing ones.
It of course can be tweaked to have a higher number of mines.

iztok wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 13:29

Race's performance In all my testbeds that race developed quite fast, compared to other PRTs. What I failed to notice was that it can operate only 1155 mines on a planet. That's quite low even for a -f race with half the economy of my race (2090 resources). I'll not say that I had serious problems with minerals (having every planet at 100% has it's advantages ), but when I started real shipbuilding (jugg & heavyBlaster BBs and lots of chaff) I noticed available minerals went out pretty quickly, and mining replenished them slowly (~300kT from an average maxxed planet at conc. 25). Even my HW had at turn 78, when opponents surrended, min. conc still at 19.

I do not understand the point, a normal race with 1700 mines on a planet gets due to depletion only 40% more or so, but has 50% more resources. So normal races should have more mineral problems .

iztok wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 13:29

The other thing I had discovered too late was the compound rate of my 6% race and my "testbed standard" 5% race with 15/8/21 factories. 6% race had 20% better pop growth, but 5% race had 20% high

[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 08:39]

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator