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HE - usable? Mon, 02 December 2002 13:43 Go to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

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Ok - the hyper expansion race - is it actually usable?

I mean sure the triple immune is funky, as is maxing out the economy/tech - but with no star gates 1/2 planet capacity and fleet limits you've got a race that can take over 5 turns to amass a fleet and you're more susceptable to invasion/bombing/packet attack.

The only real advantage I can see is the MetaMorph and the Flux Capacitor - which doesn't offset the disadvantages.

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Re: HE - usable? Mon, 02 December 2002 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EDog is currently offline EDog

 
Lt. Junior Grade

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freakyboy wrote on Mon, 02 December 2002 11:43

Ok - the hyper expansion race - is it actually usable?

I mean sure the triple immune is funky, as is maxing out the economy/tech - but with no star gates 1/2 planet capacity and fleet limits you've got a race that can take over 5 turns to amass a fleet and you're more susceptable to invasion/bombing/packet attack.

The only real advantage I can see is the MetaMorph and the Flux Capacitor - which doesn't offset the disadvantages.


I've never been able to successfully field a HE race (though not for lack of trying). I just tried experimenting with a -f HE and found out that I am quickly being overtaken by others in resources, tech, and territory (yikes!). The metamorph is a nice gimmick, but really there are other hulls which are almost as flexible (ie: Destroyer, Frigate, Privateer, Cruiser, Galleon, Nubian) and available to all races. I personally rank the HE as the weakest of all the PRTs.

EDog



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Re: HE - usable? Mon, 02 December 2002 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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EDog wrote on Mon, 02 December 2002 22:16

[quote

I personally rank the HE as the weakest of all the PRTs.


Nah! The PP are the weakest. If you don't believe me, try playing one. Razz





BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: HE - usable? Tue, 03 December 2002 01:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mangar is currently offline Mangar

 
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I saw two working HE´s so far. Both took advantage of uneven settings (Large Universe, Distant player setting) and the room they had out of it. But under normal conditions I would not expect the HE to be a real threat.

PP is weakest, thats right.



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icon1.gif  Re: HE - usable? Tue, 03 December 2002 07:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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Location: EGR, MI, USA

Also, the HE need twice as many planets, but doubling your habitability range costs less than halving your growth, so they get a boost from that and can just inhabit twice as many planets(be warned that when trying to move population the first years will be hard).


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icon3.gif  Re: HE - usable? Tue, 03 December 2002 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
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Messages: 74
Registered: November 2002
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Greetings all,

HE aren't as weak as one may think. Keep in mind that although you don't get Stargates, you simply must rely on sheer numbers. In order to do this you must design a HE that is agressive and is able to get out of the gate early with cheap tech and good factories. With the fact you are live on every planet you can sacrifice points off of mines and GR considering you get your GR doubled.

Though, like other PRT, HE can be very deadly in the right hands. Consider a Nubian with Flux Capacitators and range 3 beams, is light weight, and although not gatable, is cheap enough to have it in Large numbers around EVERY planet. Pretty scary if you ask me.

Also what of the advantage of the Mini Morph Hull. With enough slots to pump the Initiative well over that of a Cruiser, and with enough slots to compensate for the weapons, AND have cargo capacity, can be used for an efficient early gunboat.

Besides if you are going for numbers, a HE with HP style economy can really reck havoc if left alone for to long, and the 3% tri imune monster, in the right hands, can REALLY be powerfull. Sure it is weak compared to the other races, but it's advantages are it's ability to have large numbers and superior tech through constant expansion. If you plan on just sitting around and being diplomatic then you should try a JoAT HP, but if agression is your game and lots and lots of planets is your fedish, HE is probably going to work well for you.

All in all, for a beginner or newby, HE is probably weak. Though just like any other PRT, in the right hands, the HE PRT can be very effective and deadly.

Just my 2c,
Stalwart



"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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Re: HE - usable? Tue, 03 December 2002 16:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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1st: 6%(12%) growth on every planet isn't shabby.

2nd: you gotta love MM. the break points with pop at 12% are 2,500/5,000/7,500 and 10,000. Turn one let pop grow on homeworld, turn 2 take the pop over one of those breakpoints and colonize a nearby planet (if the one you 1st scouted was horrible then colonize blind)using your extra spore clouds as freighters. Since your pop grows as well anywhere else as it does at home you can move pop from turn 2 on (all you lose is travel time). Build spore clouds so you can have 2 fleets of 3 (one outbound one inbound). When your 1st colony has 10K or so repeat until every nearby (1 yr travel time) world has been colonized. By this time you should have con 3 and can build mini-colonizer transports/fuelers. Transports have a cargo pod and settlers delight engine and fuelers have fuel tank. Build 6 fuelers to 3 transports, merge them and you have a really nice freighter that will let you zip around at warp nine Smile
Maximum pop produced and planet size are your considerations for your HW. 200K seems to work pretty well as a cap for me until my production lines go green. Even then 250k gives you full defenses so until you have an enemy in sight exporting pop is more valuable than a maxed out HW. As soon as you encounter a neighbor then use your other capped pop growers to get your HW to 550K fast. It's worth getting weapons 6-8 early on and building a token of cheap DDs.
You'll now be settling farther colonies with a years pop growth (say 16.5K or so). With HPs you want to fill planets serially so one load of pop isn't going to be enough for each planet. 3 or 4 loads will get you exporting pop much faster and give you enough manpower to start industrializing. Get to Bio 4 for minelayers fast and have the HW build minelayers for every planet.

3: The problem with HEs is that you pay the same costs as everyone else and buy only 1/2 of the value. The way to best neutralize this is to buy the things that aren't affected by planet size (like immunities, mining eff
...



[Updated on: Tue, 03 December 2002 18:24]




If you can't trust me, who can't you trust?

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Re: HE - usable? Tue, 03 December 2002 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EDog is currently offline EDog

 
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BlueTurbit wrote on Mon, 02 December 2002 21:54

EDog wrote on Mon, 02 December 2002 22:16

[quote

I personally rank the HE as the weakest of all the PRTs.


Nah! The PP are the weakest. If you don't believe me, try playing one. Razz





I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Turb. My "default" PRT when I don't feel like playing anything else is PP. In the games I have played PP (that haven't folded sooner for other reasons), I have lasted into the endgame era and been able to not only hold my own, but stay on the offensive. It's not the PRT, it's how well you play it. I still hold with the belief that HE are truly the weakest race overall, for no other reason than the lack of Stargates and half-size planetary populations. Stargates are a necessity in the endgame.

PP really come into their own in the BB era, when you can first generate the firepower to take out a Starbase quickly and protect LBU bombers to knock out planetary defenses. I usually find my quickest expansion takes place shortly after getting Capital Ship weaponry and LBUs.

EDog



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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 00:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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Quote:

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Turb. My "default" PRT when I don't feel like playing anything else is PP. In the games I have played PP (that haven't folded sooner for other reasons), I have lasted into the endgame era and been able to not only hold my own, but stay on the offensive. It's not the PRT, it's how well you play it. I still hold with the belief that HE are truly the weakest race overall, for no other reason than the lack of Stargates and half-size planetary populations. Stargates are a necessity in the endgame.
PP really come into their own in the BB era, when you can first generate the firepower to take out a Starbase quickly and protect LBU bombers to knock out planetary defenses. I usually find my quickest expansion takes place shortly after getting Capital Ship weaponry and LBUs.
EDog


Turb? Turb? Rolling Eyes
"Well, pilgrim, you talk the talk, but can you walk the walk." Very Happy

Well I disagree with your disagreement. It's not that I don't like your opinion, I just don't want to hear it. Laughing
The minute you start throwing packets you give away your HW and/or second world. -f WM or such should follow up on this sign and make an early hit. Smile
Very expensive. Only race that starts with less points in race wizard is the IT. You can't get over 100 points for NAS. Have to give up OBRM to get enough minerals for packets or take costly high mining efficiency. Have to take energy cheap. All these cost extra points other races can better use. PP has no fancy toys to trade with others.

Lasting into the endgame era is not in itself a sign of a strong race. For example: you could be in last place in the end game era, and not have a snowball's chance of winning. It's not how long you make it but how you make it long. Rolling Eyes

Please press "Prt Scrn" and send snapshots of victories with PP race. Cool

HE on the other hand is no slouch. The most negative thing about HE is the lack of gates, which is no big deal if you make one ally with gates. How many games do you wi
...




BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TheJorrus is currently offline TheJorrus

 
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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 13:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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PP is great for slowing enemy growth. They are fully capable of destroying any colony before it gets started - annoying to say the least. HE has advantages, but not enough to set off the disadvantages. PP isn't outstandingly good, better than some. WM is weak as hell in my view, unless you can trade for minelayers.

PP is by no means the agressive planet killer that some noobs think they are, but they are by no means as weak as some experienced players consider.

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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SimonM is currently offline SimonM

 
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EDog wrote on Tue, 03 December 2002 18:14

I still hold with the belief that HE are truly the weakest race overall, for no other reason than the lack of Stargates and half-size planetary populations. Stargates are a necessity in the endgame.
EDog


Well, I agree with some of your points... but then I like playing weird races (including PP). PP is rather under-rated (even in a tiny galaxy).

HE is playable, but it is a MM h3ll... Like most of the PRT's, it has a balance of advantages and disadvantages (ofc I don't include the boring CA as a balance PRT). The lack of gates is probably the worst, but it's potential hab range and growth rate can make up for that (1 in 2 with 30% growth)?

However, like a WM, it has to be aggressive in order to survive... You need to occupy at least (preferably more) twice as many planets as your opponent in order to succeed... this is where the difficulty lies. If you don't get out of the gate quick, you're toast...

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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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PP's are certainly not weak and they really are the planetary doom makers some noobs think they are. A PP can take out ANY planet within range and dodging doesn't help as much as some folks think it does. As PP once you have forced your opponent to start dodging, those people are not producing and enemy production starts shrinking. Although a PP's worst nightmare is fighting an IS race that has lots of orgies over filling planets so it becomes very difficult to depopulate a world. Once a world is depopulated the defenses and starbase are gone so rebuilding takes time. The cheap IS defenses means they can build back up faster.

While any PRT in right hands and circumstances can be deadly, the reality is that certain PRT's: CA, JOAT, IS (and to some extent IT) all have better power curves available. Some PRT's such as WM's SS and SD's have advantages that make them able to compete with the power curves of the other races, at least for awhile anyway. PP's and HE's while deadly, generally don't have the economics (including the cost advantages of cheaper weapons, better minelayers, hidden ships ,etc.) the other PRT's do. Additionally they are harder to play. PP's you've got to think in terms of strategic iniatives since your primary advantage is the ability to attack planets from range and not destroy the factories and mines. HE's are a massive amount of MM. Incidentally HE's can rapidly run out of fleets. If you have a hundred planets producing ships and it takes two years to gather the ship production that's three hundres fleets used up in just your ship production.



"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 20:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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CA is balanced... you economy may be as big as the rest of the universes combined but then again thats what your facing as soon as they realize you ARE a CA race. ROFLMAO


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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 20:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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I have to disagree with that. CA's not only have the ability to produce the biggest economy in the fastest amount of time, but they get OA's as well. These make for very cheap planetary assaults, the fastest incorporation of conquered territory in the game and fantastic diplomatic tools. If the PRT is not banned in team games, the team without a CA will lose (assuming no huge disparity in player skill levels). CA's are NOT balanced by any means. Contrary to your statement regarding the rest of the universe ganging up on you ask yourself would you rather ally with the WM to your north or the CA to your south?


"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tech25 is currently offline tech25

 
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Laughing Thats like asking a hamburger if it wants to be grilled on the north side or the south side.
tech25



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an excepional individual learns from winning
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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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EDo WM, if he screws me I can fly warp 10 to his planets(and yes, I wouldn't sell him minelayers, just lay fields for him ) Twisted Evil this is omething that helps keep WMs in check as allies.


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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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Laughing

You can't be serious. Think about it: A CA can turn all those -10 yellows green for you in one turn. Double or triple the planets you can live on.



"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: HE - usable? Wed, 04 December 2002 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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At the end what matters would be if allied wins are allowed. And besides, what stops me from allying with both ROFL


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Re: HE - usable? Thu, 05 December 2002 02:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Laying mines for an allied WM is a good idea, but it's got quite a flaw: It reduces your own number of minefields.

Since each player can only have a certain number of minefields (512?) then laying mines for a WM can be a major headache AND remove your own defenses. Since a WM must expand to survive, they probably will, as such you'll have to lay the mines in keeping with their advances.

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Re: HE - usable? Thu, 05 December 2002 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
FurFuznel is currently offline FurFuznel

 
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freakyboy wrote on Thu, 05 December 2002 02:36

Laying mines for an allied WM is a good idea, but it's got quite a flaw: It reduces your own number of minefields.

Since each player can only have a certain number of minefields (512?) then laying mines for a WM can be a major headache AND remove your own defenses. Since a WM must expand to survive, they probably will, as such you'll have to lay the mines in keeping with their advances.


This is true, but there is nothing to prevent you from clearing out the old minefields to free up space for some newer ones closer to the front.



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Re: HE - usable? Thu, 05 December 2002 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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Can't clear your own minefeilds (SD's can detonate standards to speed up decay but that's it). You'd have to get an ally to do it.


"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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icon3.gif  Re: HE - usable? Thu, 05 December 2002 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 74
Registered: November 2002
Location: Varies

Youetings all,

To help things out a bit, I thought I would give this a try:

HEmroid (HEmroids)
HE
IFE,ISB,OBRM,NAS,RS

Grv: .21g to 4.64 (14 clicks from Both ends)
Tmp: Immune
Rad: Immune
GR: 7% (14%)

PopEff: 1/1000
Facs: 13/7/13/g
Mines: 10/3/14

Tech:
Wpn & Con - Cheap
Nrg & Prp - Norm
Bio & Elc - Expensive

Notes: This is NOT, let me repeat, NOT a 25k by 2450 race, though anybody with enough effort and skill can more than DEFINATELY get this race well past that mark in a Large 16 player game with ease. This race does NOT win any pop drop wars unless you plan ahead.

Then what DOES this race do? Can get you Warp 10, Movement 2.5 Range 3 beam Flux Cap Nubians by 2480 with ONLY 36 planets. ANY HE can get that many palnets by 2430 without ANY problem. This race was also designed to get those factories up and running in time to get an empty orbital fort up before enemy transports and escorts come in blazing away.

The fact that you have fast fac compounding, terraforming that ensures that the majority of your planets are going to be around 70-90% hab, enough planets to draw enough minerals from to build a considerable sized fleet per "sector", and _enough_ resources to get you nubians with CHEAP tech. With 2 cheap and 2 norm you don't need as many resources, and with all your planets having high hab you have a lot of production/breeder planets to choose from.

This race also benefits from a WM race as an ally. Most WMs have penscans (if they don't they need to, without Minefields you loose the benefit of tracking your enemies fleets while planet hopping), and considering they usually have a smaller hab (to compansate for enough facs to build Dreadnaughts on most of their planets) it is easy to intersettle with them. Also another good ally is a HP IT, Using Their Stargates to get from point A to point B, and with all that in mind you can give up any planet, as you live just about everywhere.

How to play this Race? Just colonize EVERYTHING in sight, not stoping
...



[Updated on: Thu, 05 December 2002 13:59]




"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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Re: HE - usable? Thu, 05 December 2002 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
Who says PP are weak???

I cant really agree...

Well... it depends on the universe size and some other
settings...

Most people take StarsCalc and check the damage a packet
does... not very much... packets are useless in end-game
and PP is weak.... WRONG!

First of all multiple packets can kill the planet nicely
when hitting the same turn.

Then, if the habs are chosen carefully, the packet de-terraforms
the planet quickly - which is much more powerful than the actual
damage! But you need to take smart habs...

Then, you get an easy 1-turn planet kill with some lbu-bombers.
Everybody needs 2 turns to kill a planet with bombers, PP races
need only one turn. First turn bombing, second turn the packet
smashes the planet, which has no more defs...

Then, you get yellows MUCH quicker to work than any other race
(except CA)! That is powerful!

Then, packets make the PP the second best early scouter
(behind the JoaT)

Well..... think about the following designs:

1WW HP PP with TT.
You start with 2 planets anyway, and quickly have 1/7 with TT 15.
Terraforming is a joy! Never tried it, but is most likely playable in large universes. In the late game you can terraform
nearly any planet.

temp immune, grav wide cent, rad small shifted HP PP.
gives 1/6 or 1/5, with some basic terraforming 1/3
(yellows are terraformed quickly)
with all that boranium you can terraform +-15 early (energy)
and will always terraform away from the centre...
and PPs tend to have much boranium...
thats a great weapon...

try PP! I think it is the most underestimated race in the game!

and most important: It is much fun to play... and we play to
have fun, dont we???









...




2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: HE - usable? Fri, 20 December 2002 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Stalwart is currently offline Stalwart

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 74
Registered: November 2002
Location: Varies

Greetings All,

I'm rather curious if anybody has tried my Race or a similar race similar to the HEmroids I put together above. Sometimes I wonder if my brainchilderen fair well in any games other than the ones I have played in...

Thanks and best wishes,
Stalwart



"Attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."- Sun Tzu

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