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IS race design Tue, 10 June 2003 06:32 Go to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1180
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
I'm not a specialist for IS, but one thing I've learned the hard way. But let me ask a question first:
What an IS has in abundance?

Population. So don't repeat my mistake and make a hyper-producer IS.
BR, Iztok

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icon5.gif  Re: IS race design Tue, 10 June 2003 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

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How is that a mistake? Question

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Re: IS race design Tue, 10 June 2003 08:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sinla is currently offline Sinla

 
Warrant Officer

Messages: 132
Registered: February 2003
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gible wrote on Tue, 10 June 2003 13:59

How is that a mistake? Question


I wouldn't call it a mistake, just a bit clumsy. Rolling Eyes
Your people grow in freighters, but when they hit the surface, they don't amount to any resources!

HP's don't need that much pop, they need factories (I'm currently playing a HP IT with 'just' 17% growthrate)
IS has a popadvantage over others, so use it at it's full potential (-f or HG are best suited IMO).

my my 2 cents

Sinla



If you can't beat me... Run away...

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Re: IS race design Tue, 10 June 2003 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
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I don't like to play 1/2500 ITs either, you want to be able to toss up a fort with an inf/300 ASAP, with 1/2500, you have to spend 2 years doing that, or capture a world with factories.

But in general I don't like 1/2500 for any race, so it's probably just me...



- LEit

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Re: IS race design Tue, 10 June 2003 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sinla is currently offline Sinla

 
Warrant Officer

Messages: 132
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LEit wrote on Tue, 10 June 2003 16:02

I don't like to play 1/2500 ITs either, you want to be able to toss up a fort with an inf/300 ASAP, with 1/2500, you have to spend 2 years doing that, or capture a world with factories.



yeah, that is pretty annoying, but then again, that's everything with HP Wink
Next time I play HP I will take <muffled sound> as PRT. Cool



If you can't beat me... Run away...

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Re: IS race design Tue, 10 June 2003 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

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Registered: December 2002
youre gonna be an SS arnt you? either that or a CA, those are the top choices for a HP race.


Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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Re: IS race design Tue, 10 June 2003 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
I disagree that IS does not make a good HP race. IS can actually be a HP and a hyper-expander at the same time! Yes, IS's big advantage is the pop growth on freighters, but this means that you can take a lower growth rate and effectively have a high growth rate. If you also take the 1/2500 pop resources and several tech areas expensive you end up with a lot of RW points available for factories, mines, and habitability. If you take IFE and ConTech expensive you can very quickly push out and grab space before other races. IS has a couple of early game toys, Mini-gun and Croby Sharmor, that combined with the pop's inherent defensive capability and cheap defenses make it easier to defend your early game gains. Then you need good diplomacy skills to get you through the early mid-game as you ramp up your economy. Then, look out galaxy!

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Re: IS race design Tue, 10 June 2003 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land
Yeah, I once't seen one of them thar IS HP types in a game. Went and got hisself caught atwixt a HG WM and a HG JOAT and died a horrible premature death. He had a whole lotta fun claiming to be a "sleeping giant" up 'til 'bout 2460 or so. Laughing

I ain't a saying that an IS HP can't work. I'm just saying what I once't seen.

Respectfully,
The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: IS race design Wed, 11 June 2003 03:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1180
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 10 June 2003 12:58


IS has a couple of early game toys, Mini-gun and Croby Sharmor, that combined with the pop's inherent defensive capability and cheap defenses make it easier to defend your early game gains.

Have you ever tried to get all those toys with HW still ramping, and with 2/3 res output of HGs, or building defenses on a new planet with 100k pop producing 40 res?

Sorry, the only IS advantage when comes to early pop-drop wars is pop defense bonus. After your HW turns green (turn 22-25) you can start researching and building DDs with minigun. Weap cheap rest expensive @ 3 has quite some drawbacks for early tech rush for FFs and croby Sad
BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2003 03:36]

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Re: IS race design Thu, 12 June 2003 01:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
Ensign

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iztok wrote on Wed, 11 June 2003 00:35

Hi!
vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 10 June 2003 12:58


IS has a couple of early game toys, Mini-gun and Croby Sharmor, that combined with the pop's inherent defensive capability and cheap defenses make it easier to defend your early game gains.

Have you ever tried to get all those toys with HW still ramping, and with 2/3 res output of HGs, or building defenses on a new planet with 100k pop producing 40 res?

Sorry, the only IS advantage when comes to early pop-drop wars is pop defense bonus. After your HW turns green (turn 22-25) you can start researching and building DDs with minigun. Weap cheap rest expensive @ 3 has quite some drawbacks for early tech rush for FFs and croby Sad
BR, Iztok
I agree. Croby Sharmor at tech 7 is not really an "early" technology, and the worst thing about IS is you start with absolutely zilch for technology unless you make some other tough trade-offs for early gain. When I start a game as IS and find myself with an initial ranking of 13 out of 13 players, I know I'm the only one playing IS. Laughing

As Iztok said, there is very little in the way of early advantages for an IS. Croby sharmor (EN7) equipped frigates (C6) are not an early warship when you're trying to build an economy (and they're pretty expensive for a -f race), the planetary defenses though half cost are something you usually don't bother with when you're trying to build your economy, the tachyon detectors come way late at EL14 because so many other tech fields take priority. Somewhat the same with Superfreighters at C13 (albeit to a much lesser extent, but I wouldn't call getting them at 2440-2450 "early"), and the jammer 50 comes way after nubians. Building the speed bump minelayers will bankrupt an early economy of resources and minerals (god they're expensive!).

That only leaves the IS player with three real early advantages - pop defense bonus and pop reproduction on freighters - but I LOVE the low tech (and cheap!) fuel transports best. A cheap warp 5 fuel t
...




I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: IS race design Thu, 12 June 2003 01:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
boneandrew is currently offline boneandrew

 
Crewman 1st Class

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zoid wrote on Thu, 12 June 2003 01:21




That only leaves the IS player with three real early advantages - pop defense bonus and pop reproduction on freighters - but I LOVE the low tech (and cheap!) fuel transports best. A cheap warp 5 fuel transport is available early, and never goes out of style.


Plus, they're gateable with NO mass damage with the 100/250 gate unlike the super-fuel exports.

I think the -f IS can be pretty nifty. As population is the sole means of resource production for this, having pop growth in freighters really ramps up the resource production. I also like to NOT take an immunity because when I find those poorer worlds, I just let the freighters overbreed onto the planet instead of dropping everyone. Creates a higher growth rate, even if I have to build more freighters. I'll likely have plenty of minerals.

Also, this design is the best of ANY race out there at recovering from invasions. Just have your flying orgie and a colonizer recapture your planets, and boom, instant fully productive planet again; I don't even have to worry as much about growth loss while I'm moving that pop away from the enemy.

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Re: IS race design Thu, 12 June 2003 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
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boneandrew wrote on Thu, 12 June 2003 01:42

I think the -f IS can be pretty nifty. As population is the sole means of resource production for this, having pop growth in freighters really ramps up the resource production. I also like to NOT take an immunity because when I find those poorer worlds, I just let the freighters overbreed onto the planet instead of dropping everyone. Creates a higher growth rate, even if I have to build more freighters. I'll likely have plenty of minerals.




You might want to talk to RWIAB players at some point. This game of nine -f races plus an observer race is currently populated by three IS PRT races. So there's some recent experience that can be tapped for commentary.

- Kurt aka The Mad Scientists in RWIAB


[Updated on: Thu, 12 June 2003 11:26] by Moderator


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Re: IS race design Thu, 12 June 2003 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hetzer

 
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RIP Hetzer, Nov. 28, 2006

Messages: 139
Registered: November 2002
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You'll have to wait to see if the person (in Rwiab who did this)posts but unless I'm playing an -f CA I'd never go "no immune". There is one person playing that in Rwiab and it's cost him. Yes, the pop growth of freighters becomes a bigger advantage but the extra cost in terraforming can slow down a race which depends upon speed to survive. The overall larger planet sizes combined with much smaller costs to terraform gives a huge comfort factor.

Also ,in passing, I tried dueling Blood Angel a with a wide hab -f IS and Chee with a wide hab -f CA and in both games my life was nasty, brutish and short. Ok, Ok, playing them it would have been that anyway Rolling Eyes but in both games things were worsened by having all these little tiny planets that I didn't have the time or res to terra.

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Re: IS race design Fri, 13 June 2003 05:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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Hetzer, do you mean an IS no-immune ? Frown

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Re: IS race design Fri, 13 June 2003 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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mazda wrote on Fri, 13 June 2003 05:24

Hetzer, do you mean an IS no-immune ? Frown


Yes he does. I'm the IS without an immunity. And I have to say it's been a huge problem for my race. The colonies I find tend to be marginal, some of that is bad luck (best early green I had was 67% or so - it's in the 90s now, but that took a lot of work). Terraforming is more expensive (well I have to do more to get the same effect). And it's slower, compounding the cost. And it means I grow slower (well on the ground at least), again compounding the effect. In the early part of the game an IS still does most of their growth on the ground. Pop in ships don't produce anything (besides babies that is).

I'm not sure, but I think I'd be doing a lot better with an immunity, paying for it is difficult. However, I think the net effect would have had me growing faster early, and therefore, faster now too.

Being an IS has toned down the problems however, and it might not have been too bad if I'd gotten luckier, and or if it were a normal game and I had a few HPs I could pounce on.



- LEit

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Re: IS race design Sat, 14 June 2003 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

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Zoid wrote


I tried a -f IS race in a testbed before and found that the lack of starting techs was crippling, with far too many things to do with my limited resources and not enough to go around. Maybe I didn't do it right, but I figured an IS is a relatively lousy PRT choice for a -f race and never tried it again.

Well Im no expert but I just finished a game where I played a -f IS race. I came second and lost to a SD who I had been allied to for most of the game (was a "There can be only 1" game).

The way to play is to launch a few scouts in the first turn then run for const 4 for the next few years (you will get it when your pop reaches 4000-5000 if you have 18-20% growth (I had 20% and 1/800 but I would probably tweak that in the future)).
Then you build 2 privateers and a ft each turn (more for the first turn) and as many Santa marias as you can (and mines lots of em).
Colonise everything! send out the Mini Orgys (2P +FT +2-5SM) and just drop your surplus pop on each planet as you pass (red green who cares!) if you find a planet that’s 50% or higher drop your full load and return to the homeworld (or other world that has surplus pop).
Later when you run out of room (ie meet races that have sufficient defences that you cant just pop drop them) use your grow in ships to overfill your planets (a 100% world can raise 2750 resources at 1/800 with OBRM –2200 with 1/1000. This is not as good as a factory race can get but you only need to build 8-10 large freighters rather than all those factories).
I ranked 1st for a lot of the game and even outpaced some f races in resources at times - at the end I was only 5k adrift of the SD and I could get this by dropping most of my flying pop on planets.
Its not a universe beating monster, but I had fun with it and it lasts into the end game a bit better due to being able to get twice the resources per planet other –f races get (you can also get 100+ resources from each red world –small I know but every little helps).
Joseph
...



[Updated on: Sun, 15 June 2003 00:21] by Moderator





Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: IS race design Sat, 14 June 2003 15:18 Go to previous message
Ashlyn is currently offline Ashlyn

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 833
Registered: November 2002
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Joseph wrote:
Quote:

how do you do that white outline?


All you need to do is put [ quote ] in front of what you want in the "white outline" and [ /quote ] at the end... of course, take out the spaces Wink

Sherlock
Ash

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