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| Re: Minefields |
Fri, 06 June 2003 07:00   |
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| zoid wrote on Fri, 06 June 2003 03:48 |
I don't see any reason to use the speed trap minefield. I'd rather have the enemy hit my standard minefield, take damage and stop. The speed trap minelayers are more expensive, more bulky, less efficient (less mines laid) and have a greater chance of stopping a fleet exceeding warp 6 than does a standard minefield (stopping the fleet but preventing any damage). So what is the point? What are they good for? What am I missing here?
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If the goal of mine fields are to damage the enemy, nothing.
If the goal of mine fields are to obstruct their movements by either slowing them, causing them considerable effort to sweep, or channel their attacks towards predictable targets then the speed trap is fairly effective due to it's low top speed.
I take it by your statement that the heavy mine is your favorite? Easy to lay, and does mucho damage when struck?
- Kurt
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| Re: Minefields |
Tue, 17 June 2003 19:41 |
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It's not impossible.
I've had a ship manage warp 9 for 23ly through speed bumps before... (a record? It certainly shocked me)
OK it was one ship out of the 300 that tried to make it...
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| Re: Minefields |
Tue, 17 June 2003 20:03 |
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The odds would have been very high against it but not zero.
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| Re: 3% or 3.5% |
Tue, 17 June 2003 21:10 |
|
 LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| Nexus One wrote on Tue, 17 June 2003 10:49 |
And yes they are planet-savers; speed traps can give you 100% guaranty that your opponent would not raid your planet in one turn if you have a decent minefield (speed trap) around it and enemy fleet is still at some good distance (at least 26 l.y away). Note that you can't crashsweep it with chaff, they won't blow and trigger other mines.
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It is not 100% as some one else mentioned. Chance is checked each ly of travel, so even at warp 10 you only have a 17.5% chance of hitting a speed trap mine per ly. (You are correct, it is 3.5%)
Also note that the speed you set doesn't matter, what matters is how far you travel, so if you order your fleet to go warp 8 for 25ly, it will count as going warp 5 for hitting mine fields (and only for hitting mine fields, fuel, display, and CE check use set speed).
You can chaff sweep a speed trap field, I've just tested it. Because the chance of hitting is so high you don't need as many fleets either. The hardest thing about it is collecting all the ships that hit back into a fleet the following year, normally the chaff dies...
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: 3% or 3.5% |
Wed, 18 June 2003 09:43 |
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| Nexus One |
 | Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 75
Registered: December 2002
Location: Szczecin, Poland | |
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| LEit wrote on Wed, 18 June 2003 03:10 |
It is not 100% as some one else mentioned. Chance is checked each ly of travel, so even at warp 10 you only have a 17.5% chance of hitting a speed trap mine per ly. (You are correct, it is 3.5%)
Also note that the speed you set doesn't matter, what matters is how far you travel, so if you order your fleet to go warp 8 for 25ly, it will count as going warp 5 for hitting mine fields (and only for hitting mine fields, fuel, display, and CE check use set speed).
You can chaff sweep a speed trap field, I've just tested it. Because the chance of hitting is so high you don't need as many fleets either. The hardest thing about it is collecting all the ships that hit back into a fleet the following year, normally the chaff dies...
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Geeez, 
It looks like I was very wrong about speed mine (especialy that I had so much trust in them in games I pleayed).
Sorry for misleading anyone. 
... and thanks for correcting the things.
Still I think they are good protection from a sudden attack, but not that good as I though before.
Regards,
Feliks
Check out my new program S!RP (test version)!
ftp://library.southern.edu/starsreportsprocessor.zip
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| Re: 3% or 3.5% |
Tue, 09 September 2003 06:27 |
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| Robert |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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here it is: 
| Quote: |
ZooltaR wrote:
>
> I'm trying to get one SD (Hi Ward!) off my back. He laid several nice
> heavy minefields in my space, with minelayers nested iside. Attempt to
> sweep them "slowly and carefully" will probably result in a minefield
> blasting and the layers moving somewhere else. Thinking about possible
> solutions, I came to the following idea:
>
> Build several cheap destroyers with good firepower and sweeping
> capability. Send 6 of them to the minelayers at Warp 8 (minelayers are
> 60,51 ly away - so no warning for the SD) AS SEPARATE FLEETS. Speed is 2
> "warps" higher than safe, so each of them has 2% chance per ly travelled
> that it hits the mine. In other words, chances it will arrive undamaged
> are .98^60, or 0.2916025.
Nope. Not how it works. The chance of hitting a mine is not checked
seperately for each LY traveled. It is directly additive for each LY
traveled. The chance can go to 100% or more, in which case a hit is
certain (in this case, and warp 8 anything over 50 LY means an automatic
hit). As the help file notes at one point "you *will* hit a mine",
discussing how the percentages add.
But then how come I sometimes go some distance into them and sometimes
another? - might be the rejoinder. This I only gather from testing, and
is not in the help - apparently a "roll" is made for the hit chance, and
the ship goes until the roll is exceeded by the mine hit chance or until
it gets out of the field or completes movement.
So, again, the hit chance doesn't multiply, it *adds*. Which is much
worse. It means the SD can guareentee non-intercept, for example, by
staying far enough away through enough of the right type of mines.
As some one else noted, this is one nice use of speed traps for SD - a
small field near the minelayer will stop anyone going fast enough to
reach the layer. Though they are heavy enough that they will be less
well represented in your space than in his main belts.
So, chance that it will hit the mine is
> 0.7083975. But for all of them running on mine, the odds are 0.7083975^6
> - that's 0.1263751...
Nope. Its 1.00^ 5 = 1.00. As long as the first number is under 1.00 =
100%, mulitplying fleets can increase the chance one gets through - but
not after the adds get up to 100%. And darn expensive for high hit
chances otherwise (especially with heavies).
In the presence of heavies, go warp 7 or 6.  Not fast enough, you
say? Depends on how many fleets you have - if there are no gaps over 98
LY, warp 7 is fast enough. Of course, you need rather more to keep this
up year after year.
Note that as long as the "hit" chance is under 100%, you can try this,
getting several rolls to get one or two ships through. But this is
usually better for sweeping than for intercepting - because you can
control precisely how many mines you pass through.
BTW, playing SD myself and having the two extra warps of safe speed, I
have occasionally used this idea to sweep mines at warp 9 or 10. So
watch out for the SD blitz, because they are a *lot* better at this
particular tactic than you are. At warp 10 an SD is 4 warps above safe
speed, for a chance per LY of 1.2% vs. standard mines - that means the
"auto hit wall" is 83 LY deep into a minefield. At warp 9 is .9% per
LY, so there just isn't any wall (73% chance of a hit for each fleet if
the whole 81 LY distance is within the field - 5 fleets cuts the "none
get through" chance to around 21% - now that's some sweeping!).
Trying to intercept the layers will really upset you If the SD guy
is good, they move, and move unpredictable. The only thing you can be
sure of is that there will be mines between your interceptor and his
ending location.
Also, many small mining ships are better for SD than a few big ones.
They lay smaller fields, which are much better all around, and the ships
are light enough to run around fast. A side effect is that the ships
are cheap - about the cost of a simple DD; less at higher tech levels -
just from only putting two minelaying pods (not four) on the hull. He
can have as many as he needs before long, and can easily replace his
losses. The mines, not the layers, are the threat. It's about area
controlled, and attrition - all losses on both sides can be made up.
As for the sweeping class, if he has standards detonating (stopping
sweepers is the main use of this ability) you need to expect to take
hits. Use shields, and groups of five ships if possible, to avoid
unnecessary damage. And go fast enough to clear extra mines - might as
well if you are going to get hit anyway - though avoid the heavies.
warp 6 or 7 are decent sweeping speeds for such a stack. You can also
break down and go slow in all directions to prevent *too* much relaying.
But he is going to get a lot of re-laying done. Really moving back an
SD belt, while 20 or more of his minelayers in one area jump around
re-laying where you have swept, is not at all easy.
Another trick to prevent relaying is to give a ship fairly far back
orders to intercept a minelayer (provide you can see it - good SDs
"planet hop" to hide before a forward belt jump when possible), but set
the speed low enough that you don't go far into the fields. This will
cause him some losses from "forward belt mining" when he jumps out to
extend the fields. Though it will certainly cost you some losses too,
and lots of "goose chasing" when you are set to intercept someone who
doesn't jump out of his fields.
Also, expect him to intercept your sweepers. If you always use 5 ships
he'll always use 7-10 and he'll kill lots of them for little loss. The
single greatest asset when fighting an SD is to be *unpredictable*. If
your sweepers follow one method you are doomed if he knows what he is
doing. This, more than the mine placement issues, is what makes playing
(and fighting) an SD MM from hell. You need to constantly and
imaginatively vary your tactics, sweeping, intercepting, ambushing
interceptors of sweepers, etc. The skirmish war is just too important
to lose it by being predictable (when fighting SD that is).
You are not going to shut him down. He will lay mines; you will fight
in them. You will lose large numbers of sweeping ships and have many
fleets damaged. You must nevertheless make sure that he too takes
losses in the skirmish war, and that the minefields (his) move both ways
- when you have the upper hand locally (i.e. the bigger battle fleet to
support your sweepers and provide "escalation dominance") you *must*
push his mines back; when he does you can be sure they will creep
forward. Keep an eye on the *tide* not just the waves
Don't be predictable or you are a goner
I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Jason Cawley
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| Re: 3% or 3.5% |
Tue, 09 September 2003 11:51 |
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| LEit |
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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This is not true, mine fields do not add the chances, they multiply.
I just sent 10 ships 29.00 ly at warp 6 through a speed trap field. 3 of them made it, including the first of the 10.
If mine fields added the chance per ly, it would have a 3.5% * 1 per ly, which would be a 101.5% chance of hitting a mine. If it is checked each ly it has a 64.4% of hitting a mine. Since it was able to go that far, it obviously isn't 101.5%...
3 making it is pretty much what you would expect, slightly unlucky, but not too unreasonable.
Other interesting things I found in this test:
You check for mines before you move each ly, so in this test there was one ship that didn't move becuase it hit a field immediatly.
One of the ships hit a mine at the same location as a world, the ship got killed in the battle.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Chaff Sweeping |
Tue, 09 September 2003 11:58 |
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| LEit |
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| ASword wrote on Wed, 18 June 2003 01:58 |
Collecting them is not a problem since their orders will still be set so they'll all arrive a turn later (unless the field is truly huge ).
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I generally target them at a point in space, for three reasons:
1) Speed for mine field impacts is not what you order, but instead the minimum speed needed to cover the distance (note that this does not apply to fuel used however). So you need to send them at least 82ly if you want them to truly go warp 10. (To test this, send a large number of fleets 16ly at warp 10 through a field, they'll all get through).
2) Odds of hitting go up with the amount of mine field you travel through, so going past your target increases the odds of hitting a mine, and therefore means you need to dedicate fewer fleets to chaff sweeping.
3) Battles are very annoying to look at with 100's of chaff in individual fleets cluttering them up...
I tend to gather the surviving chaff into a fleet and send it somewhere, typicly the world I just hit. If they're spread all over the place, I can either let them continue, or give individual orders to each one.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: 3% or 3.5% |
Wed, 10 September 2003 02:47 |
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| Robert |
| Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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| Quote: |
This is not true, mine fields do not add the chances, they multiply.
I just sent 10 ships 29.00 ly at warp 6 through a speed trap field. 3 of them made it, including the first of the 10.
If mine fields added the chance per ly, it would have a 3.5% * 1 per ly, which would be a 101.5% chance of hitting a mine. If it is checked each ly it has a 64.4% of hitting a mine. Since it was able to go that far, it obviously isn't 101.5%...
3 making it is pretty much what you would expect, slightly unlucky, but not too unreasonable.
Other interesting things I found in this test:
You check for mines before you move each ly, so in this test there was one ship that didn't move becuase it hit a field immediatly.
One of the ships hit a mine at the same location as a world, the ship got killed in the battle.
- LEit
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then it is again one jason cawley article run out of date.
i am sure he was right the time he wrote it, maybe this has been changed by some of the patches? and in times of chaff sweeping who cares anyway...
thanks for setting this right
robert
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Ummm, sure! 
I do FREESTYLE math.
