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Taking down an SD Fri, 09 May 2003 22:04 Go to next message
djhakase is currently offline djhakase

 
Warrant Officer

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Registered: March 2003
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What's the best way?

Do you use armored DDs (carb/organic armor) instead of frigates to take the exploding minefield hits?

How about CCs, would they last better?

How do you ensure your fleets get there?

And how do you deal with heavy minefields?

Hmm.. assistance in this would be most grateful...



they made me do it

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Re: Taking down an SD Sat, 10 May 2003 03:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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CC's are probably the better idea, but DD's will do the job.

Frigates just don't use at all... unless you're IS and you use croby sharmour.

What you want is a beamer ship that can take a minefield hit. Split the fleet and run them at high speed around the minefield - they'll hit something and take a hit, sweep the minefield back... oh and then if set to detonate they will... but your ships wont be hit.

Ensure your fleet gets there - travel at the maximum speed with a zero risk of hitting the mines, or pre-sweep the minefield

Heavy minefields - pre-sweep. Heavies do so much damage it's not worth risking sending in a big fleet at high warp... you'll get ur ass whooped.

The real problems are speed traps. You HAVE to sweep those in advance - there's next to bugger all chance of heading through at high speed.

Best way to get round an SD minefield is to be an SD yourself. The 2+ warp speed in minefields is a huge advantage - you double the speed you can travel at compared to normal races.

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Re: Taking down an SD Sat, 10 May 2003 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tprescott is currently offline tprescott

 
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I like stacks of 5 DDs for the regular fields. 5 gives best distributed damage for longevity, but even just a pair will survive one hit (better shields will help out). Use 2 beams and a shield (at least 50 dp) with a no-ramscoop engine. The additional armor is optional. I would go without it for better fuel economy and battle speed. Without additional armor, the stack of five will take 4 mine hits. Send multiple stacks at the the mine layers at best warp. Some stacks will hit a mine and stop short - taking mine damage twice if the field also detonates. But others will make it all the way to the layers to kill them.

For heavy mines, you could try a stack of 5 CCs in the same manner as above - but you would want 500 dp shields on each CC to minimize the hull damage. By this approach, the stack would survive the first heavy hit but the second hit would kill it. Not much longevity for the investment I think.

Alternately, you could stick with the DDs and send them in individually - crash-sweep style - and accept the losses of those that hit mines. I like this approach as is does not require an additional design slot.


Tom



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Re: Taking down an SD Sat, 10 May 2003 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tprescott is currently offline tprescott

 
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freakyboy wrote on Sat, 10 May 2003 16:03


Split the fleet and run them at high speed around the minefield - they'll hit something and take a hit, sweep the minefield back... oh and then if set to detonate they will... but your ships wont be hit.



With respect to minefields, the order of events goes something like this:

1. Ship movement
2. Impact field reduction (crash-sweeping)
3. Detonation
4. Mine laying
5. Minefield decay
6. Mine sweeping

http://www.starsfaq.com/order_events.htm

Here are some implications:

a) If your sweepers do not move, they will have already swept any new growth. They will appear outside the field (on the edge)and are safe from detonation the following turn.

b) However if the SD's laying ability exceeds your sweeping capability, you will appear inside the minefield. You simply need to move to a position outside of the current year's field to avoid detonation. But you may again be overwhelmed with next years mine laying.

c) If you move into a detonating field - to sweep it - you will take detonation damage the next year.

d) If you move into a detonating field above safe speed, you might take crash-sweep damage AND you will also take detonation damage. That is a potential for two hits in one turn.


Tom

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Re: Taking down an SD Sun, 11 May 2003 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
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I've always hating playing against an SD and now I am one. I hope to learn a few tricks to fight them in the future. I do see some opportunites to drive some people crazy Twisted Evil


"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: Taking down an SD Mon, 12 May 2003 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
Ensign

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I'm waiting for Micha to weigh in on this - I know SD is his favorite PRT, and he's a pretty good player.

So Micha, wanna give away some secrets? Very Happy Your silence here on this topic is deafening. Spare us some wisdom, oh sage of demolition. We all wanna know how to kill you. Twisted Evil



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Taking down an SD Mon, 12 May 2003 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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SS is a good anti-SD race. 98% cloaked sweepers can infiltrate a set of minefields at a +1 warp and sweep entire lanes before the SD knows it's about to be attacked.

PP is another good anti-SD race. Packets and minefields ignore each other.

Beyond that you have to have scanning capability almost as if the SD was SS, because you absolutely have to catch cloaked minelayers before they start interdicting the movement of your freighters and missile boats. IT are good at defense against SD for this reason, they really don't care about cloaked minelayer infiltration and can concentrate on attacking the SD.

I love playing SD. SS is the race that has given me the hardest time as an SD. Kept me detonating a large number of fields at all times to keep out sweepers. This seriously upped my micro-management. The fields had to be replenished more often and freighter movement had to be much more closely monitored. Also, allies had to be very closely monitored as they tended to blunder in detonating minefields and then be pissed off at me. Shocked

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Re: Taking down an SD Tue, 13 May 2003 02:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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It's expensive but I've seen it done...

an opponent in one game used mini mine layers with cargo pods for shifting population and even put coloniser pods on some.

Since SD can lay mines at each point without having to wait a year he just transported his people from A to B while laying mines all the way along. He kept every minefield detonating all the time (once all the early freighters had been replaced by mini mine transports)

It seemed like a bad diea at the time... but he did go 85 years without having to build a single warship!!! - and got away with it!!! (only lost the game because he didn't aggressively expand or invade anyone - which was a shame)

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Re: Taking down an SD Tue, 13 May 2003 06:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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zoid wrote on Tue, 13 May 2003 01:34

I'm waiting for Micha to weigh in on this - I know SD is his favorite PRT, and he's a pretty good player.

So Micha, wanna give away some secrets? Very Happy Your silence here on this topic is deafening. Spare us some wisdom, oh sage of demolition. We all wanna know how to kill you. Twisted Evil


Laughing ROFL ROFLMAO
Since I saw this topic I'm following it with great interest, just came back to have another look, determined to not give any tips. Wink Seeing your message was (as always Very Happy ) very amusing!

I can only say that if you want to find out how to fight an SD is the way is to play one. You'll soon enough find out what SD dislike.

PRTs good for fighting SD (already mentioned here) are being SD yourself and SS. IT is almost immune to SD harrasement in his own space but when the IT wants to attack he'll need to face the fields. Don't know about PP, of course his packets have no troubles with minefields but the PP cols still need to come over if they want to take the SD planets and kill the SD warfleets. And of course with good defenses PP packets are just a *ahum* minor nuisance. Wink Too much minerals needed.

Regards,
mch

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Re: Taking down an SD Tue, 13 May 2003 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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OK here's what I know about taking out an SD...

The best way to reduce an SD's ability to cause damage to you is to limit the space they control. This will make them happier because they have less minefields to MM - but at the same time you'll have a greater ability to crush them due to superior resources/minerals etc...

Secondly a decent starbase or two on your borders with beam weapons... or even just a bog standard orbital fort with a few gatlings on board will hold back their minefields and stop them encroaching.

Keep your eye out for the odd minefield in your own space!!! VERY important that you sweep them ASAP.

A nice little method I've used a few times is to take a ship and load it with lots and lots of armour... build a few of them and make sure that despite their weight they'll still reasonably fast... or just use organic armour and give them a few missiles/torpedos. Use them to pick off the minelayers at the nearest edges - send several "sniper" fleets in at once and you'll cause the SD to have to split their warfleets.

Another good tip is to use 3 sweeping fleets....
The first rushes into the field and sweeps it back, the second fleet then rushes past the first to sweep some more - at the same time a SFX merges with the first fleet - to repair damage. On turn 3 the first fleet will repair, the second fleet will stop to be merged with another SFX and a third fleet rushes in... you get the idea. It's the best way to minimise loses in sweeping a detonating minefield.

Nubians!!!!


Any more than that you'll have to ask Micha!! Very Happy

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Re: Taking down an SD Sat, 16 October 2004 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

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I am tempted to give away some of my tricks here....
(mostly taken from JC's articles - thanks!)

Early:
build MML with a mizer and one layer, move them to the planet you like to keep and blow up the field every turn. It is really hard to get a ship there and you are likely to get the planet.
These ships are really cheap! (and can be used as booster due to the fuel they carry!)

Early:
To sweep minefields the enemy will most likely build DDs with a shield and bazookas. Frigates dont work and before the bazooka sweeping is hopeless. These early sweepers are easy to counter:
Frigates are cheaper, ligher (you need one less range), better shield stacking and better damage as you got only one token and the DD has 2! (dont move into your detonating fields!)
You will always have a better skirmishing fleet early Smile

Middle:
Lay normal fields around your own worlds and detonate them each turn. If they attack (and maybe crashsweep) they will get a hit, even if they crashsweep the whole field (really!).
This way if you got a missle loaded base and they cant use chaff you are hard to take down - bases are only weak because of chaff, without chaff they are nasty... at least in mid-game.
The only way to avoid it is to sweep the field down to 1ly before they attack - you are warned and can gate in your fleet, also you have more time to prepare.
Bonus: the ships you build the same turn you detonate the field are not damaged, cause you detonate first, then build! So you can keep the fields detonating and still build ships without damage! (just dont forget to gate them to a better place Smile

Middle:
Use a warp10 engine and the minilayer hull and heavies, the ship move 2.5 cause the heavies are so light. Yuo can build a lot of them very cheaply and send them into enemy space warp10. They are not only vey hard to intercept (warp10, heavies all around doing a _lot_ of damage etc.), they will also need to build either fast beamers or missles. missles cant sweep so they build fast beamers. CCs are difficult (take only one
...




2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: Taking down an SD Sat, 16 October 2004 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Robert wrote on Sat, 16 October 2004 19:29

Thats the few tricks I remember (apart from the obvious things like many small fields are better than single huge ones etc...)

Grin The topic is about "Taking down an SD", you are helping the SD. Wink

mch

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Re: Taking down an SD Sun, 17 October 2004 04:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

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Yes - but knowing the traps helps to avoid them...

So to move a missleBB with kill base orders and high init to the planet and a beamer 1ly away from the planet to sweep all mines can work. Just make sure you have higher init than the base, or design the fleet in such a way that you kill the base somehow - the attack will prevent the SD to gate in ships the next turn.
Costly, but doable.

Also if you distribute some very cheap sweepers in space before the SD attacks and lays minefield you can prevent to have your own space filled with mines. He will lay fields, but before they detonate you sweep them back because you are already there.
Just make sure you got many of them and they are _cheap_.
The best is an IS frigate with mizer and the minigun. Costs nearly no resources and has good sweepingability.
The key is _cheap, cheap, cheap_ and many.
Move them around each turn so he cant fight them easily, use split fleet/dodge (if allowed by host) to make it even more difficult...

Just be there before he comes to you.... something like that...

But you will die the mm-death anyway Twisted Evil

Thats the real problem with SD IMO...

But there is nothing much to do against this if you have similar or weaker economy... being IT helps a lot Laughing



2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: Taking down an SD Sun, 17 October 2004 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

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Hi!
Robert wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 10:42

(best sweeper)
The best is an IS frigate with mizer and the minigun.

I also considered that design, but it lacks the fuel, needed to follow minelayers for more turns. It is also hard to use on attack, because it has low armor (only 3 minehits). I ended with the DD with crobby, 2 miniguns and a FM. I even excluded fuel tank to be cheaper. Without docks I don't recommend repeating this.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Taking down an SD Mon, 18 October 2004 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

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iztok wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 21:43

Hi!
Robert wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 10:42

(best sweeper)
The best is an IS frigate with mizer and the minigun.

I also considered that design, but it lacks the fuel, needed to follow minelayers for more turns. It is also hard to use on attack, because it has low armor (only 3 minehits). I ended with the DD with crobby, 2 miniguns and a FM. I even excluded fuel tank to be cheaper. Without docks I don't recommend repeating this.
BR, Iztok


Yes, a much better allrounder ship, but for the purpose of "being there and sweep _directly_ after the minefield has been layed" you need _lots_ of them cheaply. To be honest I never played against a SD who forced me to do things like this, so what I write here is just "theory"...

But there is another problem with SD:
IMO SD has more problems with design slots than other PRTS.
Not only he need several designs for minelayers, also some more for succesful skirmishing... Also he will have a lot of old designs around - or more than other PRTs....
Maybe SD is the only PRT that can make use of the UR LRT???
It is not _that_ expensice. Also he can scrap the 2 minelayers from start on and get a nice boost in very early resources...

Ah... of topic... Cool




2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: Taking down an SD Mon, 18 October 2004 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

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Hi!
Robert wrote on Mon, 18 October 2004 08:42

... but for the purpose of "being there and sweep _directly_ after the minefield has been layed" you need _lots_ of them cheaply.

In that game my race was a HP IS. Plenty of res, iron and bora, but constant germ shortage, and those DDs costed next to nothing germ... I've built several hundreds of them (lost hundreds too Wink), and in the late game for crash-sweeping heavies. Not very successful at that - at higher speeds they were dying really fast. Still they helped me to keep those minefields at reasonable size to get through with nubs...
BR, Iztok

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Re: Taking down an SD Sat, 14 October 2006 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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what is a DD, is that code for destroyer? Also, you make it sound like mine hits skip shields? so you want a cheap sweeper with just enough armor to survive a few minefield hits?

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Re: Taking down an SD Sun, 15 October 2006 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

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knightpraetor wrote on Sun, 15 October 2006 03:17

what is a DD, is that code for destroyer? Also, you make it sound like mine hits skip shields? so you want a cheap sweeper with just enough armor to survive a few minefield hits?

DD is abreviation of destroyer.
Shieds protect up to 50% of mine hits rest goes to armor.
DD may have shields in front slot. Also IS (inner strength) has armors with shield component.
DD is often used as minesweeper because of its cheap cost even in end game and even by non-IS.

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Re: Taking down an SD Tue, 17 October 2006 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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One other major benefit of using DDs for sweepers is that they only have one engine, going up to cruisers doubles the damage your sweepers take from mines.


- LEit

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Re: Taking down an SD Mon, 23 October 2006 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

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Early:
To sweep minefields the enemy will most likely build DDs with a shield and bazookas. Frigates dont work and before the bazooka sweeping is hopeless. These early sweepers are easy to counter:
Frigates are cheaper, ligher (you need one less range), better shield stacking and better damage as you got only one token and the DD has 2! (dont move into your detonating fields!)
You will always have a better skirmishing fleet early


n00b question: why does the DD have 2?

n00b question 2: i assume Any/Any disengage orders just fights while disengaging? but doesn't disengaging require so amny turns of no combat?

and also, is there any way to make ships stay in the cover of the starbase instead of charing out there? even on max-defense, they seem to go out to fight and let the starbase get wasted; and then if they lose the enemy takes on the starbase by itself


[Updated on: Mon, 23 October 2006 19:40]

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Re: Taking down an SD Tue, 24 October 2006 04:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

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knightpraetor wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 02:38

n00b question: why does the DD have 2?
Because front slot (where you can put 3-th beam) you better use for a shield if you fight against SD. Usually energy 6 or better shield.
Quote:

n00b question 2: i assume Any/Any disengage orders just fights while disengaging? but doesn't disengaging require so amny turns of no combat?
For that style you have to make None/None/Disengage battle plan. Wink
Quote:

and also, is there any way to make ships stay in the cover of the starbase instead of charing out there? even on max-defense, they seem to go out to fight and let the starbase get wasted; and then if they lose the enemy takes on the starbase by itself
There are no ways. Use battle simulation testbeds to find out how various designs act in battle.
Few points about starbase:
It has +1 range, so if you use longer range weapons that +1 makes the range even bigger so the starbase cover is large enough.
If your armed ships have longer range than enemy armed ships then they tend to (not always) back off so eventually they naturally enter the cover of starbase. Nod

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Re: Taking down an SD Tue, 24 October 2006 12:58 Go to previous message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
Ensign

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knightpraetor wrote on Mon, 23 October 2006 19:38

and also, is there any way to make ships stay in the cover of the starbase instead of charing out there? even on max-defense, they seem to go out to fight and let the starbase get wasted; and then if they lose the enemy takes on the starbase by itself

You can give your ships QJ5 engines so that their 'rush' towards the enemy is more of a crawl. Not something I'd recommend if you plan on doing any fighting away from your starbases, though.


Edit (since this is an SD thread): The Energy Dampener also helps keep ships closer to the orbital.


[Updated on: Tue, 24 October 2006 12:59]

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