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icon10.gif  VML download page: new version online Fri, 02 May 2003 17:15 Go to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
VML mod guy

Messages: 99
Registered: January 2003
Location: Vienna, AUT
Gentlemen,

I've just put the latest VML-modfile, v1.3, on my homepage for download. Latest changes include freighter, DD, FF hulls, FM engine, TF costs and tech lvl requirements. Also note I revised part placement on the hulls, IOW the engine placement is now in the same field for every design, freighters have a certain layout, as do utility hulls etc. Tell me what you like / dislike.

There's no updated helpfile yet, please stick to the old one for the moment. I'll try and supply one within the next 2 weeks.

For "VML-newbies": just put the exe in a seperate folder and run it (you need a Stars! serial ofc, and yes, you can share your original one with VML). As long as you do not run original Stars! and VML at the same time, you will be fine.

I've just started a mailing list for hosts/players interested in hosting/playing VML games. Mail me if you want to get on that list, you'll also get informed about latest betas of VML. No catches ofc. Also feel free to mail me your suggestions (but you should at least have played VML in one pbem before you do) for the v1.4 "wishlist". I may also work a little more on the graphics - if you are interested in helping (and talented), let me know.

There will definitly be a version 1.4 of VML, but I need more feedback in form of reports from hosts/players about endgame situations, outcomes of longer games etc. IOW expect v1.3 to stay around for quite some time.

Enjoy.



Verker ||¬]

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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 263
Registered: December 2002
could you please put me on the list? one thing though, SD has huge advantage over speed of minelaying now, more than the last one cause now if you use the frigate hull (what else would you be using?) its down to 100 mines layed per ship than 150. I purpose a new minelaying hull that lays the same amount of mines as the mini-minelayer. Ill give you guys a pic soon. I love the new changes to the DD hull, and the frigate should really be before the destroyer as far as research is concerned.

[Updated on: Sat, 03 May 2003 07:25]




Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 12:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
VML mod guy

Messages: 99
Registered: January 2003
Location: Vienna, AUT
The Taubat wrote on Sat, 03 May 2003 13:23

could you please put me on the list? one thing though, SD has huge advantage over speed of minelaying now, more than the last one cause now if you use the frigate hull (what else would you be using?)


Done. Allow a few days before my list will be going active.

Agreed about the minelaying. Later on in the tech tree, the revised galleon will enhance your ML ability quite a bit, but you are correct that until then, esp in slow tech, SDs advantage is enlarged. Not sure if that is negative in my POV.

Looking fwd to your ML hull suggestion - but what hull will you delete for it? Hm, one of the remote mining hulls perhaps, that come for non-OBRM or ARM, to make such a choice even more worth while?

As for reversing DD and FF hull tech requirements, that's certainly an option with the Mk II hulls. I'll think about and test it ASAP.



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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 263
Registered: December 2002
how about the smallest mining hull, but you do have a good idea,I was planning to overwrite the frigate hull but that would elimenate the troublesome Frigate hordes. there are 3 choices, mini-bomber, (no one uses that)the mini-miner and the maxi-miner, thus taking OBRM would remove the mine-layer from an availible hull, BUT it also would be nearly impossible for somone without ARM to remote mine, not that they most likly would. I really dont want to replace the midget miner cause then you would need to to take ARM wasting even more points. I purpose that we create 2 hulls, one smaller replacing the mini-miner or mini-bomber and the midget miner replaced by a heavier minelayer. those hulls are rarly used, and you would only have them at the start. one thing about the galleon being a ML is the fact that they would cost much much more rescources and minerals to build, cause they were meant to be as freighters. I have 2 hulls on hand that I could show you.


Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
VML mod guy

Messages: 99
Registered: January 2003
Location: Vienna, AUT
Hm, I'd hate to loose the FF, and for -f races having the mini bomber seems vital. There's only one ship hull I think I could renounce, the ultra miner. Its advantages over the maxi miner seem unimportant, esp with VMLs improved mining robots. So in return for the ARM choice, you would get a mine layer hull, which is better than both the DD and FF, earlier and/or cheaper than the Galleon (all Mk II versions, ofc).

The design should be weaker than the SD ones. The MML has 4 slots and doubled capacity, thus 8 slots. But when traded, they're only 4 slots - and I would not want to worsen SD trade abilities.

Perhaps a single 4pcs slot would do, only 1 type of mines possible. The ships mass should be high, to give the SD hull a gating advantage. 100kt at least. 2 engines needed. Cost about double the SD ships cost: 14i-4b-10g-36res. Same armor/fuel as the SD ship.

Your 2 hulls idea I am having problems with, due to loosing another hull and cutting SDs advantages.

Further thoughts?

Yes, cutting one ARM hull, we should consider a change to the remaining ones: adding a 3rd mining robot to the midget, and a 7th and 8th to the miner, perhaps.



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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 263
Registered: December 2002
jeez, you work fast Laughing well Id hate to use the ultra miner cause the only race that uses ARM is AR, cause they can afford it whilst other races will really hurt from it, IMO. how about 350 mines per year? I have one hull that disperses 500 per year, but SD does not really hurt from trading because they can lay alot more mines than just 50 per. like say 80 or even 100 heavy mines. and removing the mini-bomber does not hurt you in -f games cause alot of people race to cons 6 anyway, almost always made in about 5-7 years even in -f games. go ahead and use the following specs and add stuff as you see fit, cons level 7 should be the requirement. http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/uss_firehawk/LMLv1.gif


Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
VML mod guy

Messages: 99
Registered: January 2003
Location: Vienna, AUT
I see the AR point (glad you point that out, I dont play em often), but with the other 2 hulls improved, the loss of the ultra should be feasible. I mean, you get a better advantage earlier - that should count.

While I agree on the SD point (having better layers in the hulls), I'd say thats not the ones you tend to trade, normally. Besides, they loose the double frequency advantage, when traded. 350/year seem ok, but remember the galleon mk II can carry 8*50=400. I dont want to make it obsolete before people had the chance to play with designs on that one.

On your cost argument: I dig out a midgame situation, tech 11-23-12-16-7-6. Comparison between FF and Gal, using DLL7 engines (ofc scoops change the figures a bit, I tried to choose a std engine):

FF(100 mines): 14i-23b-22g-118res (125fuel, 45dp)
Gal (400 mines): 45i-93b-142g(ouch)-532res (2000fuel, 900dp)
4*FF (400 mines): 56i-92b-88g-472res (500fuel, 4*45dp)

Other than the Ger cost, the Gal doesnt seem too unattractive to me. Cheaper in Iron (important midgame), same in Bor, and the resources seem an adequate price for the Gals ability to add additional parts (and for its versatility - remember ML is just 1 case of Gal usage), its fuel and dp capacity.

Concerning mini bombers, its all about gating. Remember VML has weaker gates, esp for ITs. How the hell do you gate the big ones around? When I read through my JC article database, "minibomber" is in nearly every one he wrote!

Around level 7, yes, that seems ok from my POV.



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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 263
Registered: December 2002
ahhhh, its all about the gates. well if its gonna be 350 mines per year, it should be cheap tech, lemme tweak it a little, but I really have to say that using an ARM ship would cost a non AR race 100 points Shocked , if not more, and one person uses the midget miners cause they are gateble, so why not use the mini-miner hull for an ML.


Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
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Location: Vienna, AUT
How about that?

[img]http://members.chello.at/verker/VMLpics/layer.jpg[/img]



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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
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Ok, concerning my screenshot, here's some math (a test) showing how useless this attempt is:

testbed, tech 10-14-11-14-10-10 (just imagine weap higher, is irrelevant here)

To build a fleet laying 2000 mines/turn, you need either:

8*refitted ML=8*250=2000 (312i-384b-416g-2080res)
or
20*FF Mk II=20*100=2000 (300i-308b-420g-2020res)
or
5*Gal Mk II=5*400=2000 (225i-385b-700g-2340res)

Seems a lot of effort for nothing, I'd always go for the FFs. We either have to make it more slots, or/and cheaper, resulting in the problems I described earlier (SD trade, Gal obsolete etc.)



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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 263
Registered: December 2002
hmm, best to go with frigates it seems,or a galleon. I thought it was a good idea to start out with, oh well.



Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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Re: VML download page: new version online Sat, 03 May 2003 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
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Messages: 99
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Location: Vienna, AUT
Well, it *is* a good idea. Just a shame I did the tests a little too fast, overwriting my previous beta version Crying or Very Sad Now I will have to rebuild it manually, hoping I will not overlook anything in the process. Oh well.


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Re: VML download page: new version online Fri, 09 May 2003 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 263
Registered: December 2002
Leit and I were talking earlier today about the TW10, and he thinks that the tech requirement is too high, as do I, and we both think that it should be around TL 16 or so, not above 18. you wanted suggestions, well there is one


Royal Sha'a'kar of the Taubat people

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icon5.gif  Re: VML download page: new version online Sun, 11 May 2003 08:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
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Location: Vienna, AUT
The Taubat wrote on Sat, 10 May 2003 04:23

about the TW10, and he thinks that the tech requirement is too high, as do I, and we both think that it should be around TL 16 or so


Sorry, which engine are we talking about? TW10? Do you mean the trans-star 10 drive? In any case, even if I changed engine tech requirements, I would have to keep an eye on the whole engine line: After reaching con tech that allows mounting heavies on ships, it is important that a player can improve speed on the map of these, by getting new prop tech. Hence VMLs free warp speeds. These should keep a reasonable relation towards the non-ramscoops IMHO.

Anyway, for what reasons do you regard which engine being too high in the tech tree?



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Re: VML download page: new version online Sun, 11 May 2003 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Taubat is currently offline The Taubat

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 263
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hmmmm I just looked at the tech requirements, IMO I think that they should be the same with the G8S therefore leveling the feild between taking and not taking NRSE



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Re: VML download page: new version online Wed, 14 May 2003 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
Since I've been mentioned...

I think the TS10 is too high tech because:
Only NRSE races really want it, non-NRSE don't need it as badly. NRSE races are normally prop expensive. Getting from prop 12 to prop 23 is a huge investment, and the engine while nice is not normally worth the cost. Therefore it becomes an engine that is rarely used (I would say never, but I've played in a few of X's monster games and had max tech, and used the TS10).

I'm not sure where it should be dropped to, prop 16 to match the warp 10 ram is my initial guess, maybe only to 20 to match the gal-scoop, but even then I would only go from prop 12 to 20 after maxxing everything else first.

It's probably a good engine to change completly for some other reason.

On the FF/Mine layer hull issue: Before removing a remote mining hull, consider what an IT without OBRM would want to be able to build for remote miners (with and without ARM) and still be able to gate them. For bombers, you should consider what an IT and non-IT want in a gatable bomber. It didn't used to be a problem for IT, make it big and gate it anywhere...

Another thought: add two mine layer only slots to the FF. For mine laying it ups the capacity, for anything else it doesn't. It would make it more of a dual use ship however, although even an SS couldn't cloak it to 98% with only 2 GP slots (I think that's how you've changed it). Still probably too effective as a cloaked layer for such low tech.



- LEit

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Re: VML download page: new version online Thu, 15 May 2003 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
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Messages: 99
Registered: January 2003
Location: Vienna, AUT
Leit, I pretty much agree on your points. Esp about the fact that there is potential if one changed the TS10 completely into something else. Concerning cost investment, well, I am yet to calculate resources needed for cheap/std/exp to go from prop11 to 23, but you would have to have a huuuge fleet to make miniaturisation pay off.

Ofc in VML, ramscoops have an enhanced role to play due to the heavy items. One has to keep an eye on that. What I would rather like to do (other than making tech on the TS10 cheaper) is spreading the engines a little more over the tech tree, like I tried with the hulls. From my POV, there still remain things to be discovered in VML, even in the late game, that are worth it - so you avoid a race for Nubians.

I'll keep an eye on the TS10 suggestions that come in, maybe someone comes up with something new - other than that, I'll try and rethink about the engines - but that is low on my list ATM, I'd also like to rework the fuel consumption a bit more, and that is pesky time consuming work.

The FF (and DD) change reflects peoples opinion, that VML playes well (different than Stars!) from the midgame, but despite graphics, there's too little new things early on. Ofc the FF can still be altered, improved - likewise the DD, still taking suggestions on both (in the late game, FF chaff will find additinal shielding useful vs chaff killer weaps). Ofc I have to keep an eye on the whole shipline (and heavy items), eg your minelaying suggestion I like, but wouldn't it make the Galleon Mk II as obsolete as the old Galleon was?

Hm, maybe adding just 1 ML slot may be a possibility - that way, the FF could have 3 pods like before, but not 3 weaps. What do you think? True, cloaking is a problem I havent thought enough of when designing the FF Mk II - but I tell you, it is not too easy to think of everything, and boy, I try!

Somebody suggested to switch tech requirements for DD and FF, esp for the Mk II versions. I also like that thought, but it results in some problems with starting ships (eg IT can build some of the initial design for scrapping/tech gain, eventhough it lacks the con tech at the start). Comments?



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icon4.gif  Re: VML download page: new version online Mon, 16 June 2003 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
Master Chief Petty Officer
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Messages: 99
Registered: January 2003
Location: Vienna, AUT
Gentlemen,

VML-ML has a few new members, welcome and thanks for your interest.

Since there have not been any serious negative reports about the latest beta version, I have decided to update my website and put it there for download (URL in my sig). The zipfile now contains a text based helpfile, like former versions, since a lot of you have requested that.

There are a few interesting changes, like AR being allowed to have something DS-like (in terms of pop) at a very early tech level, like having removed the nasty SS bug (starting ship a pocket BB), like changes to the early hulls (huh, early FFs??? Wink) and the like. There are a few issues, so read the helpfile and send *feedback and bug reports*, please. I believe there is still room for improvement.

I will be starting a plain vanilla game ASAP using VML v1.3b, if there are enough players interested (size medium or large, depending on number of players, 5 turns a week). Mail me if you'd like to participate or/and host (you should have an ftp server handy for the latter).

thanks and enjoy,




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Re: VML download page: new version online Thu, 16 October 2003 18:21 Go to previous message
quatch is currently offline quatch

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 21
Registered: April 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada

Why is VML no longer distributed as a StarEd changes file?

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