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Tachyon Detectors Sun, 27 April 2003 18:32 Go to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
Ensign

Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
Greetings;

I'm trying to decide what the most effective design for a cloak-buster ship would be. I have access to the mini-morph hull, but do not yet have nubians (the obvious best choice, I think). My electronic tech is level 16, and I have NAS. I also have the RNA scanner, so cost/effectiveness is something to consider as well.

I've looked at a number of options... the mini-morph with a single scanner and nine TDs, a galleon with two scanners and ten TDs or eight scanners and four TDs, or a frigate with one or two RNA scanners and one to three TDs. A frigate with one RNA scanner and one TD is really cheap, so I could afford to build a lot - but how does the cost compare to a single, more effective ship?

My personal preference at this point is a galleon with eight scanners and four TDs. But I am unsure exactly how the TD works against cloaking. It lists a percentage degredation to enemy cloaks, but is that directly off of a fleet's cloak value, or does it reduce the cloak units the fleet produces? Quite a difference, since with enough overcloaking you could still achieve a 98% cloak if it just reduces cloak units. The guts of cloaking section doesn't specify, and I haven't been able to find anything about it yet on the newgroup or here.

If it operates as a reduction of the cloaking percentage (my assumption), then more scanners and fewer TDs seems to be the most effective. But if it is a reduction of cloak units, I think the other way around would be better.

Does anyone know which way it works? And what recommendations do you have for the design?

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Sun, 27 April 2003 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 403
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Marduk wrote on Sun, 27 April 2003 18:32

Greetings;

I'm trying to decide what the most effective design for a cloak-buster ship would be. I have access to the mini-morph hull, but do not yet have nubians (the obvious best choice, I think). My electronic tech is level 16, and I have NAS. I also have the RNA scanner, so cost/effectiveness is something to consider as well.

I've looked at a number of options... the mini-morph with a single scanner and nine TDs, a galleon with two scanners and ten TDs or eight scanners and four TDs, or a frigate with one or two RNA scanners and one to three TDs. A frigate with one RNA scanner and one TD is really cheap, so I could afford to build a lot - but how does the cost compare to a single, more effective ship?

My personal preference at this point is a galleon with eight scanners and four TDs. But I am unsure exactly how the TD works against cloaking. It lists a percentage degredation to enemy cloaks, but is that directly off of a fleet's cloak value, or does it reduce the cloak units the fleet produces? Quite a difference, since with enough overcloaking you could still achieve a 98% cloak if it just reduces cloak units. The guts of cloaking section doesn't specify, and I haven't been able to find anything about it yet on the newgroup or here.

If it operates as a reduction of the cloaking percentage (my assumption), then more scanners and fewer TDs seems to be the most effective. But if it is a reduction of cloak units, I think the other way around would be better.

Does anyone know which way it works? And what recommendations do you have for the design?


Two pieces of information to help with your decision:

1. It operates as a reduction to cloaking percentage. For example, if your TDs are reducing cloaking 9% than the max cloaking percentage any fleet can obtain is 89% (98% - 9%).

2. Cloak-busting applies on a *fleet* basis. This means that in a fleet your best anti-cloak (single ship) is used in combination with your best scanning (single ship
...




Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
- Groucho Marx

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Sun, 27 April 2003 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
Ensign

Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
Thank you for the reply, very helpful. So when I have nubians, I can have a 36-Peerless design with a 36-Tachyon Detector design and see 98% cloaked ships at incredible range... excellent.

My view on cloak-buster ships is that they are very nice to have, but not a necessity. So if some are lost, that is acceptable - they can be replaced when I have the time. I'm not too worried about avoidance either, as I plan to have enough to cover my entire section of the galaxy.

Oh yes, it is a dense galaxy, so having a single good cloak-buster at each system will be almost enough to ensure complete scans. I need maybe three or four more in open space if their range to detect 98% cloaked fleets is at least 50ly, which is easy enough.

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 02:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

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Building a nub with 36 TD's is a BAD idea.

17 TD's (6 slots on a nub) is the maximum effective number to have on one ship. That'll reduce a 98% cloak to 81%. Such a nubian will cost 750+ resources, which is alot for a scanning ship!



Suggested design....

Frigate hull
2x RNA scanner
2x Fielded Kelarium
3x TD
2x RNA scanner (the best you have?)

This means a 98% cloaked ship can get within 21 LY. This will still leave you exposeable.

Galleons will give you better results but it depends on the size of your space more than anything.

If you have large borders then maybe lots of moving frigates will do you more good. If you have a small empire then galleons give you the better coverage.

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 08:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 403
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Marduk wrote on Sun, 27 April 2003 19:08

Thank you for the reply, very helpful. So when I have nubians, I can have a 36-Peerless design with a 36-Tachyon Detector design and see 98% cloaked ships at incredible range... excellent.



As another poster pointed out the TD load "tops out" at 17 or so and a 19% reduction in cloaking. All Peerless ships are also fairly expensive to build.

In my limited experience I generally valued the design slots highly enough that I fielded a "mixed" design. Basically a combination of cloaks/TDs/scanners on a Nubian hull that gave me what I considered a comfortable base scanning range, anti-cloak effect, and security (cloaking on the scanner ship).

I don't have the design at hand I settled on - or I'd list it.

- Kurt



Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
- Groucho Marx

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 583
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Location: Where the clowns can't re...

Realistically...

What you need is a nubian that can scan 37 light years (preferable penertratingly so) against a 98% cloaked vessel. That way even an SD cannot get close to the ship without risking hitting mines - this is a good thing :)

As such here's a decent suggested design...

Nubian
3x engine of your choice :)
18x TD
12x Super stealth cloak
1x Elephant scanner (or 3 if you prefer)
3x Anything you want (mine layer 50?)

Cost (with one elephant and 3 minelayer 50's and 3x Galaxy scoop)

resources: 933
Ironium: 145kt
Boranium: 81kt
geranium: 83kt

This design can scan a 98% cloaked ship at 57ly / 38ly and is 98% cloaked itself!!


Now to cut the costs and get the best results...

Nubian
3x engine
11x TD (gives 84% max cloak)
2x Elephant scanner

Costs
resources: 657
ironium: 105kt
boranium: 57kt
geranium: 49kt

This can also scan 38ly pen and 57ly non-pen.
With 3x minelayer 50 and 12x super stealth cloak - it costs...
resources: 759
iornium: 144kt
boranium: 66kt
geranium: 91kt

Now you've got 2 slots of 3 left over to fill with anything you wish.

I *think* that this is the cheapest design capable of 38ly pen scanning against a 98% cloak. I challenge anyone to find a cheaper design (if you do I'm really happy Very Happy )

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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I would not use a penetrating scanner. Actually going to planets is a bad move for a highly stealthed vessel. It's like a submarine surfacing, you might not be seen, but the odds go up a lot. No, I would replace the Elephant with the Eagle Eye. I would also run the numbers... well when I say I, I do not actually mean that "I" will be jogging with numbers, Rolling Eyes but that one could...anyway, one could run the numbers assuming NAS as well to really get the best feel for using Tachyons.

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2340
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
overworked wrote on Mon, 28 April 2003 14:20


In my limited experience I generally valued the design slots highly enough that I fielded a "mixed" design. Basically a combination of cloaks/TDs/scanners on a Nubian hull that gave me what I considered a comfortable base scanning range, anti-cloak effect, and security (cloaking on the scanner ship).


Next to design slots also fleet slots matter a lot (true, not always), this is another reason to go for a more expenive nub design with a larger range, it would mean using only a few fleets instead of a lot of single FF fleets with cheaper smaller scanning who would clutter up your 512 slots ... (a pain when you want to crash-sweep!)

regards,
mch

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2340
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
freakyboy wrote on Mon, 28 April 2003 20:04

Realistically...

What you need is a nubian that can scan 37 light years (preferable penertratingly so) against a 98% cloaked vessel. That way even an SD cannot get close to the ship without risking hitting mines - this is a good thing :)

<snip designs>

I *think* that this is the cheapest design capable of 38ly pen scanning against a 98% cloak. I challenge anyone to find a cheaper design (if you do I'm really happy Grin)




Why stop 38/56ly? People can crash sweep from much larger distances, either go as far as you can or don't even try it. Which means load up your nub with as many TDs as is usefull (6 slots was it?), load the rest of the slots with scanners. True it will be an expensive ship but such dedicated designs are the best for the job.
As for cloacking them, don't put the cloacks on the ship, that's wasting scanning power, merge them with an OC (you should have them anyway). A few fleets of a pair of these ships (OC+scanner) spread across your space and at the borders is very nice. An enemy that does not know that he has been spotted can easily be lured into a trap. If he knows he is seen he will back off ...

I haven't played an IS before, and only had them very few times as ally, and only once far into the nub era and that was a long time ago. So my advice is more in general, when building a dedicated ship, go ALL the way. I've used nubs fully loaded with peerless scanners for instance, with NAS almost 49ly scanning against 98% cloacked ships, very expensive eyes! Close to 3500 resources and 1000kT germ. Grin
So I can people imagine thinking: put some shields on them, and jets so they can escape, but that means that a full nub can see your scanner from 49ly while you can only see that nub from let's say 40ly, IOW you don't know you have been seen and your enemy can prepare to kill your expensive ship anyway ...

But like always, the design will depend on the situation, and of course you need to have nubs and peerless scanners before you can ev
...

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
Ensign

Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
Cost is only an issue so far as I want to avoid wasting resources on less efficient designs. It wouldn't bother me to spend 100,000kT of minerals or 100,000 resources on cloak-busters provided that is the best way to get the coverage I want.

Also I specifically don't want to cloak these ships. They would be excellent bait, don't you think? If I need one to be cloaked later on, I'll just stack it with an overcloaker.

So for a nubian, the best bet (purely as far as detection range goes) would be 17 TDs and 18 scanners? What I would consider ideal is to be able to spot 98% cloaked fleets at 101 light years out, which should be easy enough with NAS at 81% effective cloaking.

Also, with NAS pen-scanning is out - it is also not necessary in this situation. I have a live-anywhere (TT, not 3I!) race and am friendly along most of my border. So I will have my scanners in systems well outside my space and in the event of hostilities will keep chaff-scouting all systems in range.

Until I get nubians, it looks like I'm best off making due with galleons equipped with 10 TDs and a second galleon design with 12 of my best scanner. (Design slots shouldn't be a problem for the forseeable future.)

Oh yes, RNA scanners aren't the best I have, just the cheapest scanner with a reasonable-seeming range. And in answer to my own question, a frigate is probably the most expensive design in terms of cost compared to scan coverage. The range would be so much less that dozens would be needed to cover the same area that a single galleon could.

I agree with Micha that when making special-purpose ships you should concentrate on having them fulfill their purpose as well or completely as possible. For instance, I typically use a chaff-killer design, but they are expected to all die in any notable fight. I keep only as many as I need for the next anticipated battle with my battle fleet. I have others following behind, and just keep feeding more in as the previous ships get destroyed, so I always have the chaff-killing
...



[Updated on: Mon, 28 April 2003 17:18]

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

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Yeah but this is a triple role vessel.

With 98% cloak, minelayers as well as the scanning this ship can be used to enter enemy space, lay mines to cause havoc and scan for ships in enemy space as well as your own.

Basically it's a ship at home at home (no that's not a typo) or in deep space.

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Re: Tachyon Detectors Mon, 28 April 2003 17:30 Go to previous message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
Ensign

Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
I haven't had a lot of luck with multi-role ships. The best I've done was a cloaked minelayer nubian.

12 minelayer 50's
9 mega poly shells
9 super-stealth cloaks
3 overthrusters
3 big mutha cannons
3 interspace-10 engines

It is intended to lay mines, remove enemy minefields, kill minelayers and scouts, and keep an eye on the neighborhood. My favorite trick with it is to set battle orders to chicken and move into an enemy minefield, then set battle orders to sweep and fleet orders to lay mines. In an instant, the enemy sees one of his minefields replaced with one of mine... fun! If I didn't have the MPS, I'd go with 3 more cloaks, 3 scanners and three shields.

My intention for the cloak-busters, though, is to spot cloaked fleets outside of range of my systems so that I have a chance to gate reinforcements in or evacuate the system before the attack happens. So the range at which they detect 98% cloaked ships is far and away the most important feature. That is also handy on the attack, so I know exactly what I'm getting into - aside from enemy ships gated in, of course.

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