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The Beam Deflector Thu, 17 April 2003 19:37 Go to next message
UAF commander is currently offline UAF commander

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

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The Beam Deflector gentleman!
A device I always considered useless, but is it really?
As a newbie, I might be terribly wrong... Smile

But I've never seen it mentioned in any guide.
So how does this device work exactly, and how and when should I use it?? (if I should at all)

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Re: The Beam Deflector Thu, 17 April 2003 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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Well, I like them myself but only on a nubian hull. I currently have a nubian beamer design that I like featuring 12 deflectors, and it's a fairly surviveable ship and is VERY cheap to build. The beamer nubians that kill it cost about twice as much in resources. Resource for resource, my beamer can beat some incredible odds even though it's somewhat weak offensively (6 AMP's and 3 Phased Sappers, with 6 HE flux capacitors).

That's just my own unqualified preference - Nobody else in that game is fielding anything remotely similar, so maybe the deflector truely is unpopular.

As for how it works, I havn't been able to find any guts on it either, so I merely speculate that it works the same way as the capacitors but in reverse, and without a cap so far as I can tell (12 deflectors takes noticeably less damage than 9). I rely more on testbeds than formulas, because I'm a mathematical idiot.

I'm sure there are more qualified people who know the formulas and limitations and will doubtless dredge up some article by Jason Cawley to back everything up. Being too lazy to do it myself but curious as well, I'm waiting. Very Happy

Editting: Changed "(6 AMP's and 3 Phased Sappers, with 2 flux capacitors)" to "(6 AMP's and 3 Phased Sappers, with 6 HE flux capacitors). I was referring to two STACKS of capacitors."


[Updated on: Thu, 17 April 2003 20:17]




I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: The Beam Deflector Thu, 17 April 2003 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
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UAF commander wrote on Thu, 17 April 2003 19:37

The Beam Deflector gentleman!
A device I always considered useless, but is it really?
As a newbie, I might be terribly wrong... Smile

But I've never seen it mentioned in any guide.
So how does this device work exactly, and how and when should I use it?? (if I should at all)


Quite useful. But especially on Nubians.

Generally you'll see smaller warships prefer Capacitators to deflectors for the firepower gain. But these cap in total effect at 2.5x firepower.

Beam deflectors don't, and Nubians can quite easily carry large numbers of these cheap components to reduce beam damage to a remarkable degree. And someone (Dan Neely?) calculated that rounding errors improve the effect above even that of the formula. Most "generic" AMP Nubian designs I see nowadays carry at least 3 stacks of deflectors. This varies due to a number of variables in any case: RS LRT (number of shield stacks), jamming capability, and personal preferences on armament/capacitor loadout.

- Kurt




Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
- Groucho Marx

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Re: The Beam Deflector Fri, 18 April 2003 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Quote:

Generally you'll see smaller warships prefer Capacitators to deflectors for the firepower gain. But these cap in total effect at 2.5x firepower.


I am Zoidian in my math skills, can someone tell me how many Caps equals 2.5xfirepower?

Thanks.

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Re: The Beam Deflector Fri, 18 April 2003 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
regiss

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

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10 caps == 2.59.

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sat, 19 April 2003 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Guts on Deflectors (as far as I know)

0 Deflectors = 100% of damage
1 Deflector = 90% of damage
2 Deflectors = 81% of damage
3 Deflectors = 72.9% of damage
4 Deflectors = 65.61% of damage
5 Deflectors = 59.05% of damage
6 Deflectors = 53.14% of damage
7 Deflectors = 47.83% of damage
8 Deflectors = 43.05% of damage
9 Deflectors = 38.74% of damage
10 Deflectors = 34.87% of damage
11 Deflectors = 31.38% of damage
12 Deflectors = 28.24% of damage
13 Deflectors = 25.42% of damage
14 Deflectors = 22.88% of damage
15 Deflectors = 20.59% of damage

I don't know if there is a limit to the amount of deflection capable... but I figured no-one is going to slap more than 15 deflectors on a nubian!!!

On a side note... in chaffless games (I'm about to lose one... so it's too late for me to try this really...)

Why not build a nubian with...
3x engine
9x top sheild
3x syncho sapper
9x Jammer 30 (50 is you're IS)
15x Deflector

Such a ship would be really cheap...
It would ignore chaff and go straight for big ships with sheilds
It would be 95% jammed... which is nice
It would be able to take 5x more beamer hits than normal!!

It's not the best idea in the world but it might do some good.


Back onto the subject of deflectors...

Deflectors IMHO are best used with RS. If your sheilds are regenerating 10% of their maximum each round of battle and your enemy's firepower is reduced as little as 27% (using just 3 deflectors) you're increased your survivability even further!!

But just like RS... deflectors vs missile ships... don't even think about it. Armour and jammers are needed!!




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Re: The Beam Deflector Sat, 19 April 2003 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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freakyboy wrote on Sat, 19 April 2003 18:47

Guts on Deflectors (as far as I know)

<snip>


IOW, each deflector mounted on a ship multiplies all beam damage dealt to that ship by 0.9. Wink
(The formula I got from one of my more math orientated team mates.)

Quote:

I don't know if there is a limit to the amount of deflection capable... but I figured no-one is going to slap more than 15 deflectors on a nubian!!!


No limit, eny caps do have a limit, IIRC 7 or 8 eny caps are the maximum that would work, adding more is useless. Since nub slots are all slots of 3 you'll see 2 slots of eny caps max.
And I used 18 deflectors on a nubian before, even one with 24 deflectors! That last one was really a tough bugger to kill and dirt cheap.
So for the record:
18 deflectors = 15.01% of full beam damage.
24 deflectors = 7.97% of full beam damage.

The 24 def nub had few weapons, 2 AMPs IIRC, 1 slot of jammers and one slot of best shields ... no jets so only movement of 2 ... Confused
It didn't do much damage but it reduced the enemies fire power so drasticly that his ships did even less damage. Laughing
Of course such a design is not a smart idea if your enemy is (still) missile heavy, it will take your nubs too long to reach the enemy missile ships and too long too take them out because of the low fire power.

Anyway, because nub wars are mainly beam wars (with the exception of fighting an AR or another race that saved his iron supply) deflectors are the best item to use on your warfleet.
Outside the nub hull it's not that common, simply because it needs a mech slot (or general purpose of course) and you don't have those in significant numbers in the other warship hulls ...

Quote:

Deflectors IMHO are best used with RS. If your sheilds are regenerating 10% of their maximum each round of battle and your enemy's firepower is reduced as little as 27% (using just 3 deflectors) you're increased your survivability even further!!


RS or no RS, in the nub era you use deflectors, they are not particularly better with RS, RS itself is simply better anyway!
I've seen a battle in which the two sides had about the same ship stack (roughly 600 IIRC) of nub beamers (both normal design with deflectors and shields) and no missile ships on both sides. Yet one side had RS, the end result was that their shields were generating more than the other fleet could strip off! Laughing The RS ships didn't have any losses, the other side was completely wiped out. Grin

Quote:

But just like RS... deflectors vs missile ships... don't even think about it. Armour and jammers are needed!!


Jammers yes, but with nubs you do not use armor! Make sure you have RS and not adding armor is only an advantage! Grin

regards,
mch

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Dedicated sapper (Re: The Beam Deflector) Sat, 19 April 2003 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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freakyboy wrote on Sat, 19 April 2003 18:47


On a side note... in chaffless games (I'm about to lose one... so it's too late for me to try this really...)

Why not build a nubian with...
3x engine
9x top sheild
3x syncho sapper
9x Jammer 30 (50 is you're IS)
15x Deflector

Such a ship would be really cheap...
It would ignore chaff and go straight for big ships with sheilds
It would be 95% jammed... which is nice
It would be able to take 5x more beamer hits than normal!!

It's not the best idea in the world but it might do some good.


IOW a dedicated sapper, a ship with only one purpose, to sap the shields of the other side ... I would add and then die ...
Just like your anti-chaff ships, get in one shot (the first) and than die.

I don't think it would do much good, IMHO it won't do enough damage, you would need more ships of them, the ship is all about defense and has only 3 weapons, while it will die eventually ...
A too high cost to only sap shields, once enemy shields are down you've got an expensive piece of machinery just sitting there doing nothing ... Sad

True, they are unattractive to beams as well as missile ships, but they will be in a smaller stack than your main line beamer ships, which means less shield coverage and I think because of that the enemy ships (beams and missiles) will shoot at them first before switching to your main line beamer fleet.

The sappers will fire on the enemy beamer stack but such a stack would (should) be pretty large and your sapper stack would be pretty small and without much fire power (focussed on defense), so they will just make a little scratch ...
Better would be of course if they fire on the missile stack which will be smaller (iron shortage) I doubt if they would get in range of the enemies missile ships since those will hang back, your sappers will have to move all across the board to get to them.

I could be wrong but I would certainly carefully test this to see if the attractiveness of the smaller sapper fleet isn't higher than the large beamer stack ... Especially since your mainline beamers maybe also have 15 deflectors? And maybe 2 shields? Than the difference is small ...

Better would be to make a sapper with no defense at all (no shields, no deflectors and no jammers) and make sure it has the first shot above anything else on the battle board and be sure that there will in fact be something in range to shoot at!
Those ships must fire before your own missile ships (of course), before the enemy beamers (not a problem, since sappers have a high weap init already) and before the enemy missile ships (if not than add jammers/shields untill you are sure your main line beamer stack will be shot at first, but again the sappers have a higher weap init than any of the missiles, so with max computers you will shoot first).
This way you'll get much more offensive ships with huge fire power that will reduce the enemies beamer stack shields significantly ...

Oh and for IS don't use 3 slots of jammer50s, 2 should be enough ...

regards,
mch


[Updated on: Sat, 19 April 2003 18:36]

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sun, 20 April 2003 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
Ensign

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The caps max out at 10, not 7 or 8. The difference between 9 and 10 is small enough that you seldom see anyone bother with number 10. Maybe some weird Dreadnought design would.

For 9 caps you get roughly 2.36x damage. Going up an additional 0.14x damage is very seldom worth taking up an extra slot.

For what it's worth, my opinion on using deflectors in small ships is 'don't'. I usually have better things to put in a mechanical slot, and having only one to two deflectors is sometimes more expensive than building 10% or 19% more ships with the slot empty. Considering that a deflector does nothing against missiles and that missile will normally be hitting these small ships before they go after the big (well-defended) ships, I've never had a reason to use them on anything other than a nubian. I tried a cruiser design with four deflectors, and it was much less durable for the cost than a cruiser with two more shields and the other two deflector slots left empty.

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sun, 20 April 2003 21:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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It's interesting that so many people will use jammers so easily yet ignore deflectors totally?

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sun, 20 April 2003 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
djhakase is currently offline djhakase

 
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Well, isn't it generally seen that Jammers are more powerful than Computers (because decreasing accuracy can be devastating) whereas Capacitors are more powerful than Deflectors (offense is more valuable than defense of a ship which is meant to rush to the front of the firing line, destroy the chaff, then have the missile ships strike?)

I don't know much but that seems to be the general feelings of people...



they made me do it

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sun, 20 April 2003 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
Ensign

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freakyboy wrote on Sun, 20 April 2003 18:40

It's interesting that so many people will use jammers so easily yet ignore deflectors totally?
I hear people all the time saying beams are better than missiles, but it seems to me that people really FEAR those damned Armageddons like nothing else! Laughing

Okay, it's a bit of a diversion, but the quote was on topic at least and I had to say it. Capital missiles rule. Cool

Maybe since deflectors are available so early in the game and are so useless at that point that people get used to thinking of them as useless and forget about them later when they are useful, with nubians. Then again, maybe it's only what djhakase suggested:
Quote:

offense is more valuable than defense of a ship which is meant to rush to the front of the firing line, destroy the chaff, then have the missile ships strike



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: The Beam Deflector Mon, 21 April 2003 04:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Marduk wrote on Mon, 21 April 2003 02:08

The caps max out at 10, not 7 or 8. The difference between 9 and 10 is small enough that you seldom see anyone bother with number 10. Maybe some weird Dreadnought design would.

For 9 caps you get roughly 2.36x damage. Going up an additional 0.14x damage is very seldom worth taking up an extra slot.


D'oh! Embarassed You're right, it's indeed three slots of caps on a nubian and not two, so 9 in total while the 10th is not worth it (instead of my erratic 6 and the 7th is not worth it) ... sorry Confused Don't know what I was thinking Grin I've build nubs with 3 slots of caps before (not the one with 24 deflectors Wink )

regards,
mch

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Re: The Beam Deflector Fri, 19 November 2004 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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overworked wrote on Fri, 18 April 2003 03:25

Beam deflectors don't, and Nubians can quite easily carry large numbers of these cheap components to reduce beam damage to a remarkable degree. And someone (Dan Neely?) calculated that rounding errors improve the effect above even that of the formula.


I've just spent a while searching for details on these rounding errors, but can't find anything specific. Can anyone point me at a formula for capacitors/deflectors that gives the correct results taking these rounding errors into consideration ?

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Re: The Beam Deflector Fri, 19 November 2004 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Staz wrote on Sat, 20 November 2004 00:53

overworked wrote on Fri, 18 April 2003 03:25

Beam deflectors don't, and Nubians can quite easily carry large numbers of these cheap components to reduce beam damage to a remarkable degree. And someone (Dan Neely?) calculated that rounding errors improve the effect above even that of the formula.


I've just spent a while searching for details on these rounding errors, but can't find anything specific. Can anyone point me at a formula for capacitors/deflectors that gives the correct results taking these rounding errors into consideration ?



I remember the article, but not the details ... What I do remember was that the effect of the deflectors on the armor was correct, but with shields the deflectors gave better results.

mch

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sat, 20 November 2004 09:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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I'm pretty sure it was James McGuigan, but I can't find it anywhere, not even at starsfaq.com which is where I'd expect to see something by him.

IIRC he built nubians with shields, and 3 to 33 defelctors, and a beamer to hunt them down, and made a table of expected damage, and actual. If you're redoing the test, make the hunter have only one stack of beams, and no (or 10) capacitors, so other factors don't confuse things.



- LEit

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sun, 21 November 2004 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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LEit wrote on Sat, 20 November 2004 14:40

I'm pretty sure it was James McGuigan, but I can't find it anywhere, not even at starsfaq.com which is where I'd expect to see something by him.

IIRC he built nubians with shields, and 3 to 33 defelctors, and a beamer to hunt them down, and made a table of expected damage, and actual. If you're redoing the test, make the hunter have only one stack of beams, and no (or 10) capacitors, so other factors don't confuse things.


Thanks for the hint - it was just what I needed to find the table.

Search google groups for "Defs Predicted Actual testbed" and you find the following table...

Defs  Predicted        Actual
  1       4,262         4,270
  2       3,836         3,840
  4       3,107         3,080
  5       2,797         2,800
  6       2,517         2,510
  9       1,835         1,800
 12       1,338         1,330
 15         975           950
 18         711           670
 21         518           480
 24         378           340
 27         275           240
 30         201           150
 33         146           100


Unfortunately he couldn't find a pattern to the results.

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sun, 21 November 2004 07:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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I have tried the following algorithms to see if I can reproduce James' results, but with no success...

1. damage = damage * 90 / 100, repeated n times
2. mod = mod * 90 / 100, repeated n times and then multiplied by total damage
3. mod = mod * 100 / 110, repeated n times and then multiplied by total damage
4. slotMod = 73/100 (3 caps in a slot) then as 1 but repeated x times where x is the number of slots of caps

All of this was done using exclusively integer arithmatic. Of course, this was using 32 bit integers, so it could be rounding issues caused by the use of 16 bit signed integers.

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sun, 21 November 2004 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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Doh!

I should have read the entire thread that James' message was in. At the end of it all, Bill Butler comes to the rescue and explains the results in terms of integer arithmatic and rounding in armour damage.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION
using integer math
Let Y(0)=1000 and k=10
Y(n) = Y(n-1)*9/10 ,  X(n)=Y(n)/k

n            Y            X
1           900      90
2           810      81
3           729      72
4           656      65
5           590      59
6           531      53
7           477      47
8           429      42
9           386      38
10         347      34
11         312      31
12         280      28
13         252      25
14         226      22
15         203      20
16         182      18
17         163      16
18         146      14
19         131      13
20         117      11
21         105      10
22         94         9
23         84         8
24         75         7
25         67         6
26         60         6
27         54         5
28         48         4
29         43         4
30         38         3
31         34         3
32         30         3
33         27         2

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Re: The Beam Deflector Sun, 21 November 2004 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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Finally, I have results that match James' table. The code is...

   private int getCapResult(int base, int caps, int armour)
   {
      // Calculate the increments in which armour damage is applied
      int damageTick = (int)Math.round(armour / 512.0);
      
      // Calculate the damage modification from the capacitors
      int mod = 1000;
      for (int n = 0; n < caps; n++)
      {
         mod = mod * 90 / 100;
      }
      mod = (int)Math.floor( mod / 10 );

      // Get the basic damage done after taking capacitors into account 
      int damage = base * mod / 100;
      
      // Round up so that damage is applied in increments of 1/512
      int damage2 = (int)(Math.ceil(1.0 * damage / damageTick) * damageTick);
      
      System.out.println( caps + " : " + mod + "% = " + damage + " (" + damage2 + ")" );
      
      return damage2;
   }


and the results are...

1 : 90% = 4262 (4270)
2 : 81% = 3836 (3840)
3 : 72% = 3409 (3410)
4 : 65% = 3078 (3080)
5 : 59% = 2794 (2800)
6 : 53% = 2510 (2510)
7 : 47% = 2225 (2230)
8 : 42% = 1989 (1990)
9 : 38% = 1799 (1800)
10 : 34% = 1610 (1610)
11 : 31% = 1468 (1470)
12 : 28% = 1326 (1330)
13 : 25% = 1184 (1190)
14 : 22% = 1041 (1050)
15 : 20% = 947 (950)
16 : 18% = 852 (860)
17 : 16% = 757 (760)
18 : 14% = 663 (670)
19 : 13% = 615 (620)
20 : 11% = 520 (520)
21 : 10% = 473 (480)
22 : 9% = 426 (430)
23 : 8% = 378 (380)
24 : 7% = 331 (340)
25 : 6% = 284 (290)
26 : 6% = 284 (290)
27 : 5% = 236 (240)
28 : 4% = 189 (190)
29 : 4% = 189 (190)
30 : 3% = 142 (150)
31 : 3% = 142 (150)
32 : 3% = 142 (150)
33 : 2% = 94 (100)

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Re: The Beam Deflector Tue, 23 November 2004 15:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

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Arggh Java Do Not Enter Asleep at cptr
Evil stuff - worse than AMP beamers
I understand your code, I see what it is doing, but I bet £50 I couldnt get it to compile even if I spent 9 years in remedial Java Class.
Joseph
PS If its C I am sooooo embarased Head Explode



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: The Beam Deflector Tue, 23 November 2004 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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It's Java. Something like System.out. could be done in C++ I think but that's standard Java. Also the private on the function name is Java, although I think it could done like that in the defination of a C++ class, most people don't write functions that big as inline.


- LEit

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Re: The Beam Deflector Wed, 24 November 2004 04:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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joseph wrote on Tue, 23 November 2004 20:29

Arggh Java Do Not Enter Asleep at cptr
Evil stuff - worse than AMP beamers


You are invited to the bar (actually, the circular file) to discuss the evils of Java over a pint
Cheers


[Updated on: Wed, 24 November 2004 04:45]

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Re: The Beam Deflector Tue, 07 December 2004 07:21 Go to previous message
Zaphod is currently offline Zaphod

 
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I do not know about using deflectors on nubians, but you can double the armour points on a Galleon by putting 7 on, and putting 3 of your best beam in the leftover slot. Best armour and best engine finnished the enemy design

They were not attractive to the targetting algorithm (low boranium), and since they have no shields, and are good at chewing chaff, but resource for resource it's expensive, and a waste of cargo space. The design did work however and I lost all my chaff, and they distracted my beamers long enough for the enemy torps to do serious dammage. So deflectors are not dead IMHO.



If you much it up in the beginning as you learn the ropes, and make intentional mistakes. And then bust open the top-scorer's head suddenly, it comes as a big surprise to everyone. (this only works once)

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