| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sat, 11 June 2016 16:56   |
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| ludek |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 23
Registered: December 2009 | |
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ManicLurch wrote on Fri, 10 June 2016 18:12I like the Weapons expensive too.
As far as Construction not cheap, that is fine as well. Construction expensive I think gives another advantage to the IT race. I would say choose not cheap or no restriction. I would also make a final decision on single player win or not. That is a big difference. My preference is single player for this game. Also make a final decision on random events.
Quote:Anyone know why IS was given an extra penalty last game?
I think the idea was they would have an advantage getting pop to the middle because of pop growth in freighters.
What about doubled HE growth or bigger Joat planets (growing after filing them up more pop). They can just send more and then grow in place more (especially HE)
I do not think it's vailid reasoning.
Regarding Construction not cheap for fast races choice may be either lose some of eraly pop growth or start with Construction expensive and start at 3.
I think only HE and IT are immune to this dilemma.
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sat, 11 June 2016 22:46 |
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How about these for victory conditions?
1) Victory is determined by a vote. 51% or greater of the votes requited to win.
2) At least 60 years must pass before a vote can be requested.
3) A player may not request a vote for himself to be called winner.
4) At least 25% of the starting races must be out of the game before a vote can be requested (eliminated or not submitting).
Automatic win with no vote required: If a player owns 50% of the planets in the center section, and no other players own planets in that area.
On another note: We are getting more players. Any preferences on the max number of players? 12?
Raindancer
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sun, 12 June 2016 00:28 |
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Hi ,
dont make the victory condition so hard .
1.) Victory is detemined by vote. 100% of the vote request.
2.) All player can call a vote every 15 years
3.) After a vote all Races voted for no will be public
Kon not cheap yould also be ok for me but have to know it before race build.
What have AR to do with there Kolonizers after 2415 ?
He -f is now what exactly ?
ccmaster
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sun, 12 June 2016 17:28 |
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ManicLurch wrote on Sun, 12 June 2016 16:40Quote:He -f is now what exactly ?
We do need to define this, there have been multiple definitions used in past games.
One definition was simply factories no worse than 10/10/10. They could be better of course.
Another definition used was factories no worse than 10/10/10 and growth rate no larger than 10(20).
The 2nd definition was in place to prevent any variation of the super fast 25-30% growth rate HE races. We used the first definition in the GOAT game.
The top post was updated (actually I posted an update and ccmaster pasted it into the first post for me. Min 10/10/10. No rules about growth rate. I check all the posts for the Goat game and there were no growth rate restrictions there. So I am okay with what we have.
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sun, 12 June 2016 17:35 |
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If you have any last notes about victory conditions or race restrictions (especially the IS/Joat costs) please post soon. I will post final rules tomorrow so everyone can work on their race files. There is really no consensus on VCs at this point. If I do not hear more thoughts I will come up with something that is 1) not too easy and 2) not too hard. A vote may work best for this, but 100% is too high, and 51% may be too low.
I will also post the player list tomorrow.
Raindancer (really really wanting to use the Bugs as a race name... but knowing I will get squished if I do...)
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sun, 12 June 2016 18:41 |
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| neilhoward | 
 | Commander |
Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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Race Restrictions and Penalties
Factors to consider for balance and fun:
1. Standard differential of performance among PRTs, and balancing (nerfing) the econ powerhouses
Joat, IS, IT, CA, & HE are all strong econ PRTs primarily for what they do with their pop (planet size, growth in space, transport via gates, instaform colonization, and doubling MPGR.
HE needs less intervention because their primary boon is already partially nerfed via half cap planets.
2. Game setup specific differential of performance among PRTs
Because of larger universe size and in combination with a gap to be crossed, both IS & IT have an added advantage relative the other three econ PRTs.
HE lack of gates hurts more than usual in this scenario.
3. Non-pop balancing needs
HE restriction of no -F is required for historically demonstrated reasons.
Several races receive a boon in detection (built-in hull based scanners, tachyon detector, gate scanning, and crystal ball). The Joat built-in scanners are not necessarily the most powerful overall, but that which has greatest utility in early game. This indicates the additional restriction of no NAS for Joat, in addition to the race wizard penalty based on item 1 above.
The different amounts scrap received further remediate starting tech imbalance among econ PRTs, as well as their differential return on early research (e.g. CA).
4. Universal research limitations
Mac puts his finger on the exact reason for W expensive.
Con not cheap is influenced be the same reasoning, but has a greater effect in nerfing the WM which becomes ascendant when the econ PRTs are balanced.
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sun, 12 June 2016 19:15 |
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| neilhoward |
| Commander |
Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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Based on the aforementioned rationale, I recommend restoring the 50 point penalty to Joat and the 100 point penalty to IT.
It is my belief that Dream Cloud's [early] performance was due much more to Altruists skill than inadequate nerfing. You might ask him for a look at the race; I considered it a bit of a glass cannon and am certain it would have more trouble in a single player victory / no comms game.
I'm partial to the Con not cheap, but I don't mind half the races taking WM so can go either way.
In addition I strongly recommend restricting battle orders attack who to only "nobody" or "enemies".
[Updated on: Sun, 12 June 2016 19:30] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sun, 12 June 2016 19:58 |
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neilhoward wrote on Sun, 12 June 2016 19:15Based on the aforementioned rationale, I recommend restoring the 50 point penalty to Joat and the 100 point penalty to IT.
It is my belief that Dream Cloud's [early] performance was due much more to Altruists skill than inadequate nerfing. You might ask him for a look at the race; I considered it a bit of a glass cannon and am certain it would have more trouble in a single player victory / no comms game.
Joat: My initial impression was that the No NAS and the lowest number of scrappers were enough to balance this race. They would still have a tough time getting to the center. That and no one took them last game with the 50 point penalty. No one else had presented any opinions on this one (maybe half the players planning to be Joat?) so I am interested in hearing other opinions and putting in the 50 point penalty if that is the general opinion.
IT: A number of people wanted the IT cost higher (in a few cases much higher). With this scenario being able to quickly expand in the center is very important. In the last game the only IT was able to gate in warships, enough to kill the escorts I brought along with my own freighters. And bring in bombers to kill the planets I colonized. IT can react much faster than other races. Or course I had a very bad and slow race so again maybe not the best example, but I was willing to put a somewhat higher cost on this one. Opinions from others we have not heard from?
Quote:
I'm partial to the Con not cheap, but I don't mind half the races taking WM so can go either way.
Well even with Con not cheap last game we had 3 WM of 9 players. And we have had a number of people express a preference for leaving this one alone.
Maybe judging by the last game (3 WM, no IS or JoaT) is not enough of a sample on which to make judgements. I have not been playing for the last 5 years so I am not sure what is common now...
Quote:
In addition I strongly recommend restricting battle orders attack who to only "nobody" or "enemies".
Because people can effectively team up using this?
Raindancer
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Sun, 12 June 2016 23:35 |
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neilhoward wrote on Sun, 12 June 2016 20:42Raindancer wrote on Sun, 12 June 2016 16:58
Quote:
In addition I strongly recommend restricting battle orders attack who to only "nobody" or "enemies".
Because people can effectively team up using this?
Raindancer
Not necessarily worried about a (flagrant abuse) team-up, so much as deciding to only attack one enemy at a given location.
So in Goat I had a battle board with two enemies. One had fighting ships (high attractiveness) and the other had a fast scout (low attractiveness). If my ship did not go after the scout immediately upon starting the battle, my ships would never catch it (and kill it, and I needed to kill it...). But in any case I would still end up fighting the enemy with the fighting ships (if I set the battle plan for the first enemy), because that other enemy had battle plans to attack me. So that battle plan allowed me to choose the order of what I attacked. What is wrong with that?
Dodging Dancer
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Mon, 13 June 2016 14:22 |
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Hi ,
battleplan to attack all and battlepan to atack nobody is mormaly needed that you can fly with a cloaked fleet into minefields and not sweeping it and make a suprice attack.
If not a Minefield is also a good scanner for incomming enemy fleets.
ccmaster
PS : I like all enemy and all attack all players.
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Mon, 13 June 2016 16:51 |
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Free For All (or Fun For All... depending on your preference...) Game Update. Final rules.
I am playing. I will be primary host handling day to day problems, delays, etc. vmanuel will be doing the setup, and acting as co-host in case there are problems to be resolved that need game files reviewed.
Universe and Game Parameters
Galaxy remapped to a bullseye comprising an outer ring and inner core. HWs distributed equidistant along outer ring. Number of planets per player as close to 35. Density within core and ring is closest to dense (~2.5 stars/10kly^2). Dimensions of structure determined by (1) 10x #players stars in core at 2.5 density, (2) gap width 100 ly less than core radius, (3) sum of number of stars that would populate gap if 2.5 density and actual number of stars in game provides radius of outer ring via the square root of number stars over density, all over pi and rounded to the nearest multiple of four (if remapped to large) or 5 (if remapped to huge).
Acc BBS is on. No PPS.
Random Events.
Race Restrictions and Penalties
IS: 25 points set to defenses.
IT: 150 points set to defenses.
HE: No -F. Settings 10/10/10 at least (away from -F settings).
Joat: No NAS, 25 points set to defenses.
CA: A number RW points set to defenses and MPGR such that the growth rate may be increased 4%.
All: Weapons expensive.
Starting Scrap
Players start with a cache of up to 42 scrappers (DNA Scanner, Beam Deflector, RadRam FFs for chance of up to level 6 in all techs). Host will use Jrc3 modded with Stars Editor and the zerohack module to set the tech level, resource cost, and mineral cost of ship hulls and components to zero. Because SAH does not use modded EXEs, all modded ships will need transfer tags before genning on SAH. The ships are queued in 2400, given orders to transfer in 2401 (necessitating change in player relations), given orders to transfer back in 2402, and game files are distributed/loaded on SAH at year 2403. If a race takes NRSE, their scrappers get DDL7s instead of RadRams. There are no special restrictions on how you choose to use your scrapper frigates.
Number of FF by PRT:
Joat, IT = 12
CA = 18
IS = 24
All others = 42
# Higher
Tech Fields
Available
6 | 49 74 87 93 97 98 99 99 99 99
5 | 49 74 86 93 96 98 99 99 99 99
4 | 47 72 85 92 96 98 99 99 99 99
3 | 44 69 82 90 94 97 98 99 99 99
2 | 38 61 75 84 91 94 96 98 99 99
1 | 25 44 58 68 76 82 87 90 92 94
------------------------------------------------------------
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Tech Trading Events
Schedule
1400 GMT every day through 2430. After 2430 the game can switch to 3 days per week upon request of any player. After 2460 the game can switch to 2 days per week upon request of any player.
Everyone starts with two delay requests, and those surviving through 2460 get a third. Requests may be used to delay no longer than two regularly scheduled gens, and may be split at hosts discretion.
Communication and victory conditions:
No pregame alliances.
No communication.
Race names visible on game page, Player names not visible.
Single player victory. All other players must be set to enemy. Fleet setting to attack "nobody" or "everyone" only.
Victory is determined by a vote. 100% of the votes required to win. Each race in the game gets one vote.
Player Exploitable Bugs / "Features"
Repair after gating, chaff, ISB trumps IT gate scanning, split fleet dodge are allowed.
Mine damage dodge and mine damage allocation are allowed.
Do not cause target list overload: do not cause more than 100 of your fleets to be at any one location.
Do not cause battleboard overflow: do not send more than 75 of your tokens into a battle (merge happens after battle).
Do not put alpha or beta torps on ships with more than two engines.
No explicit ban on minimum damage, but the last two should be adequate to nerf it.
AR exception: Alternate Reality PRT may build up to 6 cheap colonizers (Colonize without Colonizer), anytime up to 2415.
Anything else on the Known Bugs (JRC3) - Player Exploitable Bugs / "Features" list is disallowed. See the list in the Must Know section of the forum.
Race deadline:
June 24. Start date as soon as the files are generated and posted.
Vmanuel will do a serious favor for all of you who can get him a race by June 20th: He will gen a single race testbed with your race. He will even add in the scrappers, because he is a freaking masochist. He has a new email account victorstarshost at gmail please send your race files there. If he gets them before the 20th, he will reply with a testbed. After that, you're SOL.
Looking like 8 players presently. I will send out updates as needed for the player list.
Rain Dancer
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Mon, 13 June 2016 17:08 |
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Current player list:
Raindancer
ManicLurch (depending on start?)
ccmaster
Mac1
LittleEddie
ludek
Fabrice
bklooste2
That is 8 players.
NeilHoward is a maybe... looking at how much time he has.
As far as I am concerned this number is flexible until the 24th when race files are due.
RainDancer
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Thu, 16 June 2016 05:48 |
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 bklooste2 |
 | Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 7
Registered: April 2015 | |
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Some suggestions..
Balance
1.AR without allies is very vulnerable early on , so needs something . No base kill order vs AR , or something else the free colonizers is not enough eg vs a -f/HG WM .
2. re IT , Altruist is a great player and races with high pop growth also have a bonus since once they get pop there they can use that pop to expand further You could say add a 20 point penalty for every level of growth over 17 ( or 20 for HE). Treating IS as +1 ( and removing its penalty) . If this is done you can set IT back to -100 penalty and no penalty for IS , it will also encourage more balanced/ diverse races.
Options
1.Weapon must be normal or expensive and choose slower tech. It removes the free point bonus from expensive.
2.Random events . Suggest you cant use WM for the first 30 years nor can you send more than the min mins. Gaining 4+ levels weapons would be bad for balance and having the game decided by such a dice role is not good.
[Updated on: Thu, 16 June 2016 05:49] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: FFA: Free For All |
Thu, 16 June 2016 11:39 |
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Hi ,
you are a little bit late bklooste2 . Races are already in the testinggronds of all payer to change the Final game settings would crash all the work done.
1. AR are vulnerable in the Mid game, but all player should know this. If you want to play an AR you should have some ides to handle it. If you have not dont play it.
2. Altruist is a good player but never mind by this settings to move pop in gates and mineral in gates is a real huge advantage. I would even say that we will see a IT
conquere the middle again a the leftover points are not enouth.
@ all
You should not try to change the game by allowding bugs for races or other settings. Try to handle them by gameplay.
ccmaster
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