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Getting really frustrated with some things Wed, 10 February 2016 15:26 Go to next message
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Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 48
Registered: February 2007
My main annoyances are playing against PP races and trying to stop the AI from re-colonizing EVERYTHING (they all seem to have massively huge hab settings for some reason).

PP races : I startup a colony, and before i can build defences or a mass driver equipped orbital fort, the colony is destroyed within 3 turns by the AI spamming packets at it that instantly destroy it and bypass my fleet (incredibly dumb IMHO). I know you can "steal" packets with freighters, but it is incredibly micro intensive and the AI usually spams too mayn packets for me to get them all. How exactly are you supposed to counter this? A PP AI usually takes out all the other AIs by itself simply because it can sit back and one shot their colonies with impunity.

I tried going after their starbases but the AI simply doesnt care and keeps re-building them. I finally resorted to sticking 5 cruisers on every world i can to stop the AI from re-colonizing them, but the AI is somehow managing to re-colonize those worlds even with my fleet in orbit! How is it doing that? Ive tried setting up a massive standard/speed trap minefield but the AI is still somehow re-colonizing those worlds with 100k+ pop while my fleet is sitting in orbit.

And pretty much every war ive fought has been the AI ignoring whatever i do and just spamming colonies. On most occasions it wont bother to put up a fight and will simply try to out-bore me by colonizing everything. Is this typical? This seems to be a common problem with old games, the AI is usually programmed to exist for as long as possible instead of putting up a fight, which usually means avoiding the player as long as possible. The AI just keeps spamming 1 ship fleets of freighters/privateers everywhere and doesnt build any dedicated warships most of the time.

Im also having trouble with mine fields, for example lets say i have a fleet with a sweep ability of 30k mines per year or something really high. I enter a small minefield at warp 9. Since my sweep aiblity is really high, I should be able to sweep all the mines out of my path and not have to worry about the mines right? Nope, somehow i still hit the mines instead...this doesnt make any sense, my ships are sweeping the area as they advance, and they have a much higher sweep ability than the enemy's mine laying ability, so how are they hitting the mines?

I cant figure out how the patrol order works either. For example lets say i have a fleet orbiting planet X set to patrol within 50 LY. A few turns later, i notice that the fleet is now orbiting a totally different planet and set to patrol that planet instead. Why? Ive also seen patrolling fleets end up on the other side of the map with a MASSIVE list of patrol orders (which i never added to them), what is going on here? Is the feature just broken?

And is there a way to automatically set newly created ships to a certain order? Having to constantly set mine layers to lay mines is really annoying.


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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Thu, 11 February 2016 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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Question wrote on Wed, 10 February 2016 21:26
My main annoyances are playing against PP races and trying to stop the AI from re-colonizing EVERYTHING (they all seem to have massively huge hab settings for some reason).


That's true.
In general AIs don't cheat and the same rules apply as for every human player with one big exception: race pts available for race design. The AI designs use up many many more pts than any human has available. But that's ok because otherwise the AI would be even weaker than they already are.

Quote:
PP races : I startup a colony, and before i can build defences or a mass driver equipped orbital fort, the colony is destroyed within 3 turns by the AI spamming packets at it that instantly destroy it and bypass my fleet (incredibly dumb IMHO). I know you can "steal" packets with freighters, but it is incredibly micro intensive and the AI usually spams too mayn packets for me to get them all. How exactly are you supposed to counter this?
[...]
I tried going after their starbases but the AI simply doesnt care and keeps re-building them.


Kill not only the base but bomb and conquere the planet. Some nice amounts of minerals can be found...

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I finally resorted to sticking 5 cruisers on every world i can to stop the AI from re-colonizing them, but the AI is somehow managing to re-colonize those worlds even with my fleet in orbit! How is it doing that? Ive tried setting up a massive standard/speed trap minefield but the AI is still somehow re-colonizing those worlds with 100k+ pop while my fleet is sitting in orbit.


This sounds like:
a) wrong battle orders for your cruisers
b) Have you perhaps filtered out colony designs in the scanning view? It's the button at the top right with the red and black ships, there you can set which ships are shown and which not... very useful tool. But since the AIs are spamming so many colony ships (especially the HE-AI), one very often filters out colony ships.

5 cruisers are a bit too many IMHO.
It's a long time I played a full game vs AIs but I think I remember putting a simple frigate with a single coloidal phaser in orbit of EACH "cleaned" planet to avoid recolonizing. That works automatically without any additional orders from you except sending the frigate to the planet.
But at later stages sometimes upto 3 colonizers or more of different or same AIs might reach a planet in the same year and your watch isn't able to catch all, sometimes some AI-warships get behind your frontiers and thus you need a kind of manual guard stationed to defend a whole area or cluster. This patrol consists of 2 pieces:
1) A freighter with pop to popdrop planets recolonized by the AI (those who got thru your planetary guards)
2) A small patrol of warships capable of hunting down stray AI-warships which managed to get beyond your frontiers.

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And pretty much every war ive fought has been the AI ignoring whatever i do and just spamming colonies. On most occasions it wont bother to put up a fight and will simply try to out-bore me by colonizing everything. Is this typical?


Yes.
Unfortunately the tactical and strategical abilities of the AIs ware very weak.

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Im also having trouble with mine fields, for example lets say i have a fleet with a sweep ability of 30k mines per year or something really high. I enter a small minefield at warp 9. Since my sweep aiblity is really high, I should be able to sweep all the mines out of my path and not have to worry about the mines right? Nope, somehow i still hit the mines instead...this doesnt make any sense, my ships are sweeping the area as they advance, and they have a much higher sweep ability than the enemy's mine laying ability, so how are they hitting the mines?


Movement happens before sweeping.
Orders of events:
* http://starsautohost.org/sahforum2/index.php?t=msg&th=23 86&start=0&rid=&S

So your ships move into the minefield, perhaps hitting mines, then they sweep.

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I cant figure out how the patrol order works either. For example lets say i h
...

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Thu, 11 February 2016 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 48
Registered: February 2007
Also i dont get how you are supposed to bomb planets. Firstly there appears to be no way to get your bombers in orbit to NOT bomb the planet or stop at a certain level...the main problem i have is trying to bomb the planet to take out colonists without killing the factories (since rebuilding factories tends to take forever).

Normal bombs will generally destroy almost all factories before you can get the pop low enough to take it with troops. It also seems quite easy for a bombing fleet to kill either too much pop (forcing you to use a colony ship which is pretty dumb, since all the buildings and such should still be there) or too little pop (in which case your invading force gets killed).

Anti-building bombs seem pointless, since you generally dont want to kill the factories.

Smart bombs have the problem that defences remain active and will take out 75% of your invasion force...which can get expensive very quickly (e.g. if your assault force is 400k, it will take a 600k planet many turns to regrow that pop unless you are IS and can reproduce in freighters. Oddly enough it seems that IS pop grows VERY quickly in freighters compared to planet side...)

Is there a trick to this?

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Thu, 11 February 2016 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Petty Officer 3rd Class

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I do bomb the planets, but the AI just doesnt care and re-colonizes them next turn. I've seen the AI re-colonize them even with multiple cruisers in orbit set to the default battle plan, i dont know how they are doing it. I really want to nerf packets because it is just way too easy to one shot colonies with them...does anyone know if theres a way to mod the game to change stuff like that?

I can see colony ships just fine on the map view but my orbiting fleets sometimes refuses to engage them.

Putting one destroyer to intercept the colony ship works most of the time, but only in the early game, if i dont do this fast enough for most of the planets in the universe, the AI will spam armed privateers and eventually warships at them and it gets WAY too expensive to put massive fleets in orbit of every planet, and i have to keep replacing them due to attrition.

Setting warships to patrol seems pointless because the AI spams more 1 ship fleets than you can intercept and they will often run of fuel or get bugged and fly to the opposite end of the universe.

I want to actually fight the AI but the AI doesnt want to fight, it just wants to spam colonizers and privateers everywhere...every game quickly degenerates into "can i setup the destroyer picket on every planet quick enough"? Narrowing the hab ranges for AI races would probably help so that they spam less colonizers, is there a way to modify their race files?

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Thu, 11 February 2016 18:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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Altruist wrote on Thu, 11 February 2016 17:18
Only thing you can do is route your ships that they automatically fly to another planet but that feature is broken, too, and works only for HEs. Your newly produced ships don't want to move to the frontier but to gate to the frontier and that can't be automated.

I've seen it work often enough. Ships gate automatically and follow the Route orders for the destination gate(s) too. The wave



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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Thu, 11 February 2016 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Question wrote on Thu, 11 February 2016 17:19
Is there a trick to this?

There's bombing calculators, and there's trial and error. You get to choose which bombs your bombers carry, and how many bombers you send to a planet.

And yes, bringing a colonizer to the party is often the best way to take a depopulated planet. Twisted Evil



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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Thu, 11 February 2016 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Question wrote on Thu, 11 February 2016 17:29
I do bomb the planets, but the AI just doesnt care and re-colonizes them next turn.

You need to bomb and defend them. Colonize them, put up a Fort or a Dock, make sure your skirmishers are fast enough to catch AI colonizers and/or transports.


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I've seen the AI re-colonize them even with multiple cruisers in orbit set to the default battle plan, i dont know how they are doing it.

Review your Battle Plans. You might want to set them to "attack everyone". Also, try to intercept AI colonizers en route, see if you can start battle with them.


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I really want to nerf packets because it is just way too easy to one shot colonies with them...does anyone know if theres a way to mod the game to change stuff like that?

Yes: Build defenses! Rolling Eyes

You can also "dodge": Park an evac transport in orbit to ferry your pop to safety, and have a Colonizer nearby. Next turn your colony is up and running again!

Also, you can try to intercept packets en route with a Transport ship, and Load all their minerals before they hit your people.


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Putting one destroyer to intercept the colony ship works most of the time, but only in the early game,

Their ships get faster as their engines get better. It's a race, and you need to keep up. Whip

Same with population. You need to grow faster than them, use the extra pop to beef up small colonies or popdrop enemies. Carry enough minerals with your fleet to fast-build a Fort, or Dock.


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if i dont do this fast enough for most of the planets in the universe, the AI will spam armed privateers and eventually warships at them and it gets WAY too expensive to put massive fleets in orbit of every planet, and i have to keep replacing them due to attrition.

That's why stargates are useful. And minelayers too. Build a border with minefields, and watch the AI smash mindlessly against a near impassable barrier. Cool


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I want to actually fight the AI but the AI doesnt want to fight,

So bring the fight to their planets. Destroy their shipyards and population centers. Gather your ships carefully into strong multipurpose fleets, where each ship type reinforces the rest, and you'll be able to easily defeat larger AI fleets and harvest their minerals and techs. Twisted Evil



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Fri, 12 February 2016 10:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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Question wrote on Thu, 11 February 2016 17:19
Also i dont get how you are supposed to bomb planets.


Well, you can try your luck with neutron bombs and such things but IMHO they are not efficient enough. You'll need those bombs you don't want to use: m70, m80, cherry. Against planets with heavy defenses lbu-bombs speed things up a lot.

Have you ever checked wether the enemy planet has defenses?
Have you calculated how many bombers you need to kill off the pop in 1 year or at the most in 2 years?

"Bombing, Packets, and Invasions" by Shane Kearns

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Fri, 12 February 2016 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 48
Registered: February 2007
Does anyone have a link to a battle calculator then?

I cant colonize all the planets though, the AI has such massively wide hab settings that they can colonize at least 3 times my planets on average. In my latest game the AI is spamming nubians which is forcing me to leave Nubians on every planet to try and stop him from re-colonizing them the next turn, but they eventually get worn down due to attrition.

Defence fleets seem to work best with long range weapons in my experience as beams will take more damage and get worn down much faster.

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Yes: Build defenses! Rolling Eyes

You can also "dodge": Park an evac transport in orbit to ferry your pop to safety, and have a Colonizer nearby. Next turn your colony is up and running again!

Also, you can try to intercept packets en route with a Transport ship, and Load all their minerals before they hit your people.


A factoryless world wont be able to build defences fast enough before the packet hits in 2 turns usually. Also ive seen the AI just spam large enough packets that will wipe out a colony even with a warp 7 driver and max defences.

Quote:
Their ships get faster as their engines get better. It's a race, and you need to keep up.


Its not a matter of speed, but the fact that the AI will eventually spam enough ships to kill the destroyer and the AI will never get bored of spamming 1 ship fleets that are impossible to mass intercept.

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Carry enough minerals with your fleet to fast-build a Fort, or Dock.


But the bottleneck is resources, which cant be transported to new colonies...

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That's why stargates are useful. And minelayers too. Build a border with minefields, and watch the AI smash mindlessly against a near impassable barrier. Cool


In my experience minefields are really expensive, you need at least 50 frigates to put up a decent minefield, 100 if the enemy starts sweeping, and it tends to not do anything except slow the AI down. The AI will just send colonizers at warp 4.

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So bring the fight to their planets.


Which is what i do, but the AI doesnt try to stop me most of the time, it just re-colonizes everything i can. Its got multiple nubians running around but instead of sending fleets to reinforce the worlds im attacking, it just doesnt care and sends them to hit the defence fleets i have that try to stop its colonizers.

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Well, you can try your luck with neutron bombs and such things but IMHO they are not efficient enough. You'll need those bombs you don't want to use: m70, m80, cherry. Against planets with heavy defenses lbu-bombs speed things up a lot.


Yes, in my experience something like 20 b-17s loaded with cherry bombs will generally kill most worlds in one turn, but im trying to do it WITHOUT killing the factories because it takes forever to get a factoryless world up and running. Smart bombs will do it but it tends to take 4-5 turns o a world with 500k pop or more, with the same amount of B-17s. Also i find it weird that i never get messages indicating that i have gained tech points from invading a colony...is that normal? And smart bombs never tell me how many bombs are intercepted by defenses, unlike normal bombs.



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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Fri, 12 February 2016 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Petty Officer 3rd Class

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Okay so...when moving through a minefield, are you supposed to just move at warp 4? Since for some reason sweeping happens AFTER movement, and you can only sweep mines within a certain range (whatever that is)...so you are always going to run the risk of flying into mines regardless of how good your sweeping ability is...

And does anyone know how computers/jamming work? If i have a torp with 50% accuracy and i use 2x20% computers, is the final accuracy now 90% or 50% * 1.4? Or something else? Does 50% jamming mean a 50% accuracy torpedo becomes 25%?

When setting up a yellow planet, when is it best to terraform it to green (1% or more hab rating)?

Edit : Okay i just found this calculator : download Starscal3.06.rar v3.06 217kb at http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Utilities/Calculators. But the torpedo accuracy rate doesnt make much sense. For example, delta torps have a accuracy of 60%, and with one battle computer (20% increase) the accuracy rate shown is 68%. But a 20% increase of 60% is 72%...


[Updated on: Fri, 12 February 2016 12:01]

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Fri, 12 February 2016 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

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Question wrote on Fri, 12 February 2016 17:46
Does anyone have a link to a battle calculator then?

Your best bet for that is running a battlesim: a game created with the express purpose of testing battle orders, fleet mixes, ship designs, even amounts of bombs or packets. Work at computer


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the AI is spamming nubians which is forcing me to leave Nubians on every planet to try and stop him from re-colonizing them the next turn

You allowed the AI to reach Nub tech? That's a race you should win. Hit Computer

Still, you should be able to design and build better and cheaper Nubs, able to easily take down similar numbers of AI Nubs. 2 Guns


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beams will take more damage and get worn down much faster.

But are way way cheaper and lighter/faster, so you can build (and gate around) more. You need to tailor your fleets to the enemies they need to beat, and beams are a great companion to the more expensive missile ships. Cheers


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A factoryless world wont be able to build defences fast enough before the packet hits in 2 turns usually. Also ive seen the AI just spam large enough packets that will wipe out a colony even with a warp 7 driver and max defences.

Use the dodge then. But your best defense is taking down their mass drivers. Whip


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the AI will eventually spam enough ships to kill the destroyer

By then you should have something stronger.


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the AI will never get bored of spamming 1 ship fleets that are impossible to mass intercept.

But can be mired down on minefields. And their planets aren't infinite either.


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the bottleneck is resources, which cant be transported to new colonies...

But you can transport population, which amounts to the same. Rolling Eyes


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In my experience minefields are really expensive,

Much cheaper, earlier to get, and easier to manage than the alternatives.


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you need at least 50 frigates to put up a decent minefield,

Several smaller overlapping minefields are better than a few large ones.


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100 if the enemy starts sweeping,

Kill their sweepers!


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and it tends to not do anything except slow the AI down. The AI will just send colonizers at warp 4.

Which is exactly what you need to win that race. Warp4 takes a lot longer to reach targets than warp8/9.


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the AI doesnt try to stop me most of the time, it just re-colonizes everything

Yeah, they're dumb. Just keep killing its population centers and eventually their colonization flow will dry up.


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it takes forever to get a factoryless world up and running.

It shouldn't, if you have cheap mines, high growth and thus extra population to reinforce your smaller worlds.


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i find it weird that i never get messages indicating that i have gained tech points from invading a colony...

You get those only if they have better tech than you, and then only in about 1 of every 4 invasions. Sherlock
...




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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Fri, 12 February 2016 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

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Question wrote on Fri, 12 February 2016 17:54
Okay so...when moving through a minefield, are you supposed to just move at warp 4?

Yup, unless you take your chances, or send sweepers ahead.

You could also chaff-sweep. Twisted Evil


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Since for some reason sweeping happens AFTER movement,

Ships move thru warp space, not normal space. Nothing interacts with a ship at warp speed, except mines.


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And does anyone know how computers/jamming work?

Check the helpfile. And run battlesims. Sherlock


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When setting up a yellow planet, when is it best to terraform it to green (1% or more hab rating)?

For a factoryless race, I'd say there's nothing better to do, unless you are swimming in excess pop.


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the torpedo accuracy rate doesnt make much sense. For example, delta torps have a accuracy of 60%, and with one battle computer (20% increase) the accuracy rate shown is 68%. But a 20% increase of 60% is 72%...

The calculator is right. Computers decrease inaccuracy, in this case 40% decreased 20% gives 32%.



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In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Sun, 14 February 2016 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 48
Registered: February 2007
Quote:
You allowed the AI to reach Nub tech? That's a race you should win. Hit Computer

Still, you should be able to design and build better and cheaper Nubs, able to easily take down similar numbers of AI Nubs.


I was trying to kill the PP AI because it kept spamming packets at my new colonies and killing them before i could build a starbase/defences to stop them. Turn 1 : colonize. Turn 2 : packet gets sent. Turn 3 : packet hits. Even with 500k colonists on default settings, thats only 500 resources a turn and you have 1 turn to build defences/a mass driver to try and prevent it from being one shotted.

I can build better nubs, but the AI will just keep spamming nubs at uninhabitated worlds to try and kill the 1 nubian i have there so that they can colonize it. The AI will never get bored of doing this but I will get bored of having to send 1 ship to every single world and replacing them constantly to stop the colonizer spam.

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But are way way cheaper and lighter/faster, so you can build (and gate around) more. You need to tailor your fleets to the enemies they need to beat, and beams are a great companion to the more expensive missile ships.


Im not finding normal stargates to be much of a help really, given that bombers/loaded freighters automatically prevent you from using them and you need those to take out enemy worlds. Also beams actually take more resources than torps/missiles IIRC, and are only cheaper iron/germ wise.

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Use the dodge then. But your best defense is taking down their mass drivers.


A orbital fort with a mass driver is pretty cheap and the AI will just keep re-building them so you need to leave fleets on EVERY single one of his worlds to stop them from rebuilding it. That is a micro nightmare.

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Much cheaper, earlier to get, and easier to manage than the alternatives.


A single frigate with 3x mine dispenser 50s costs about 100 resources when you can first build them, and only dispenses 150 mines a year, which is easily swept away by a single destroyer with beams. Its not cost effective by any means. Unless you are playing SD, its simply impossible in the late game to maintain a sizable minefield because even the AI can sweep them with impunity and 200+ frigate minelayers can't keep up.

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Kill their sweepers!


Manually intercepting every AI fleet in range will drive you crazy because the AI will spam dozens of 1 ship fleets at you. Also it is WAY too easy to sweep mines...amount of mines swept per year is the beam weapon's damage x4, you dont even need gatling beams to sweep a ridiculous number of mines per year. A blaster doing 69 damage sweeps 276 mines per year, a minesweeper 50 lays only 50 mines a year and takes 55 resources to build, compared to less than 20 for the blaster. Even a super mine layer that can lay 4k+ mines a year is easily negated by a beam cruiser that is a fraction the price of the mine layer.

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Which is exactly what you need to win that race. Warp4 takes a lot longer to reach targets than warp8/9.


Im not racing with them in the first place because those arent worlds i can colonize anyway...

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Several smaller overlapping minefields are better than a few large ones.


The game doesnt seem to allow you to contro lwhere the center of the minefield is. Ive had fleets in deep space laying minefields and the center of the minefield shows up quite fara way, looks like 30+ LY away at least. I have no idea how that works, and trying to lay overlapping minefields often causes the minefields to merge together.

With SD, this is particularly problematic because detonating minefields hurt all non-minelayer hulls. Ive tried putting them between my planets and the enemy planets, but it doesnt seem possible to control the exact location of the minefield and either the minefield ends up covering my own planets (which usually have stuff like freighters at them) or it is too small and does nothing much. Its a very large resource investment for neglible effectiveness.

Quote:
It shouldn't, if you have cheap mines, high growth a
...

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Sun, 14 February 2016 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

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Question wrote on Sun, 14 February 2016 14:54
I was trying to kill the PP AI because it kept spamming packets at my new colonies and killing them

Keep a safety distance of 152lys (255lys against Warp13 packets) between your colonizing efforts and the nearest enemy massdriver. Wall Bash


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the AI will just keep spamming nubs at uninhabitated worlds to try and kill the 1 nubian i have there so that they can colonize it. The AI will never get bored of doing this but I will get bored of having to send 1 ship to every single world and replacing them constantly to stop the colonizer spam.

Which is why you should bunch your ships and go kill AI starbases instead. And their pop transports too. Hit over head


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Im not finding normal stargates to be much of a help really, given that bombers/loaded freighters automatically prevent you from using them and you need those to take out enemy worlds.

Use gates for your attack warships. The heavier tokens need "normalspace" logistics, unless you're IT. Teleport


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beams actually take more resources than torps/missiles

That would be a concern for factoryless and HE races. Most everyone else worries more about minerals. my 2 cents


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A orbital fort with a mass driver is pretty cheap and the AI will just keep re-building them so you need to leave fleets on EVERY single one of his worlds to stop them from rebuilding it.

Freighters are cheaper. You'll need to bomb enemy worlds flat, and keep pressing for victory. There's no truces with the AIs. Hit Computer


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A single frigate with 3x mine dispenser 50s costs about 100 resources when you can first build them, and only dispenses 150 mines a year, which is easily swept away by a single destroyer with beams. Its not cost effective by any means.

It's still cheaper, easier and earlier than the alternatives. Learn to lay overlapped minefields, it's one of the most important defensive skills you'll need. Rolling Eyes


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Manually intercepting every AI fleet in range will drive you crazy because the AI will spam dozens of 1 ship fleets at you

Which is why most people prefer to kill them before they grow to that point. 2 Guns Fire bounce


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Even a super mine layer that can lay 4k+ mines a year is easily negated by a beam cruiser that is a fraction the price of the mine layer.

Killing minesweepers is a fact of war. It can and must be done. It usually needs very different designs, fleets, and management than main battles, tho. Sneaky


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Im not racing with them in the first place because those arent worlds i can colonize anyway...

Yes, you're racing to bomb them faster than they can re-colonize them. Whip


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The game doesnt seem to allow you to contro lwhere the center of the minefield is.

Centers move when the fields are swept. Other than that, yes, you can control them. Just don't try to overlap them too close. UFO


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5 turns of factory buildinng still leaves you with insufficient resources to start terraforming. Thats with HP settings of 1 res/2500 pop and 15/9/25.

It depends on your resource settings and the pop reinforcements you can muster, but I thought we were talking about factoryless races.


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Yes, but i meant for a race that uses factories. For example the planet is at -5%, when do you try to terraform it to green status?

It depends on your playstyle and race design, but you want to start Terra before your pop dies too much. Most people build a couple turns of Factories, then mostly Terra with perhaps a few Mines and Facs per turn. That's one of the things you want to testbed thoroughly for any race you design. Work at computer


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it would have been great if the help files had said "decrease inaccuracy" instead of increasing accuracy...

The helpfile is nearly but not 100% accurate. Shocked
...




So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Sun, 14 February 2016 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Question is currently offline Question

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 48
Registered: February 2007
A small galaxy is roughly 500+ LY from north to south. 150 LYs is a good portion of the galaxy. Not being able to build any colonies within 150 LY of an enemy orbital fort is a HUGE disadvantage. Its a massive area denial zone of no refueling bases and no new colonies.

Its not just 150 LY either. Warp 13 packets travel 169 LY a turn if i have the calculations right. I tested it and with 570k colonists, it takes 5 turns to build enough factories to reach 100+ resources with 15/9/25 factory settings. That is not enough time to build an orbital or sufficient defenses to survive a packet, even if you have more than 1 turn to do something about it. Even if you had 10 turns of time (which you dont), you STILL wouldnt be able to build enough defences to survive the packet.

And due to order of events, you actually need 169*2 LY distance to be able to intercept a packet with freighters. This is why : Turn 1, the packet is fired and is now 169 LY away. Turn 2, the packet has moved 169 LY again, but it does so before your freighters can intercept it. If your colony is within 338 LY, it gets nuked before you can intercept it with freighters. That's more than half of a small sized galaxy.

The fact that packets cost almost no resources so that they can be spammed from any low pop planet doesnt help. Any colony that doesnt have a mass driver + maxed defences is going to die very quickly. You can spend the same amount of minerals to build a massive bombing fleet and it wouldnt be anywhere near as effective except against fully defended colonies that you can whittle down through attrition, because your fleet can be intercepted and killed, and slowed with minefields, but packets cant.

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Which is why you should bunch your ships and go kill AI starbases instead. And their pop transports too.


You mean the starbases that they just keep re-building? And again, are you really going to try and intercept every 1 man colony fleet that the AI spams? We are talking about dozens of 1 man colony fleets here.

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Use gates for your attack warships. The heavier tokens need "normalspace" logistics, unless you're IT.


I'm confused, how are you using gates to attack? The only thing you can do is try to warp them to your nearest planet and then travel through normalspace to the enemy planet, but if you are doing that there is no reason to not have your logistic ships start from the nearest planet.

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It's still cheaper, easier and earlier than the alternatives. Learn to lay overlapped minefields, it's one of the most important defensive skills you'll need.


Like i said, the minefields dont overlap properly and the center is often not where the minelayers are...

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Killing minesweepers is a fact of war. It can and must be done. It usually needs very different designs, fleets, and management than main battles, tho. Sneaky


You dont even need mine sweepers, which is my point. Regular beams work just fine in clearing minefields far faster than the equivalent number of resources can lay mines.

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Mon, 15 February 2016 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
Question wrote on Mon, 15 February 2016 04:16
A small galaxy is roughly 500+ LY from north to south. 150 LYs is a good portion of the galaxy. Not being able to build any colonies within 150 LY of an enemy orbital fort is a HUGE disadvantage.

Which is why you mustn't allow the PP AI to take and hold anything closer than 3 Warp9 jumps from your HomeWorld. Boxing


Quote:
Warp 13 packets travel 169 LY a turn if i have the calculations right.
...
And due to order of events, you actually need 169*2 LY distance to be able to intercept a packet with freighters.

Packets only travel half the distance the year of launch. 169*1.5 = 254 (255ly to be on the safe side)

But if you allow the PP AI to Research that far in such a modest playground, then you've already lost the race. Shocked


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because your fleet can be intercepted and killed, and slowed with minefields, but packets cant.

Your fleet can chaff-sweep, and also get reinforced in subsequent turns, and kill dozens of AI planets (regardless of Defenses) if properly managed. Hit over head

Packets can and should be intercepted with freighters, which generally works nicely until the AI runs out of ammo.


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You mean the starbases that they just keep re-building?

Not if you bomb them flat. Anyway, that's how you buy the time for your colonies to build 100% Defenses.


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are you really going to try and intercept every 1 man colony fleet that the AI spams? We are talking about dozens of 1 man colony fleets here.

I've intercepted worse, against humans. Twisted Evil


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I'm confused, how are you using gates to attack? The only thing you can do is try to warp them to your nearest planet and then travel through normalspace to the enemy planet, but if you are doing that there is no reason to not have your logistic ships start from the nearest planet.

Your border planets can usually only build a fraction of your total fleets. Let those be the heaviest ships, while everything else gates to the border form elsewhere. Teleport


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minefields dont overlap properly and the center is often not where the minelayers are...

Try a testbed without enemy sweepers. And don't try to overlap closer than 250 lys for starters.


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You dont even need mine sweepers, which is my point. Regular beams work just fine in clearing minefields far faster than the equivalent number of resources can lay mines.

Indeed. Unless the enemy kills your beamers, which will mean more expensive losses than special-purpose throwaway skirmishers. 2 Guns

And minelayers get cheaper to build as tech improves, don't they?



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Wed, 17 February 2016 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi Question!

IMO you have wrong approach to Stars!. You're fighting on AI's terms, instead dictating yours.

What I'd suggest you is do the RTFM, check what's really going on in game and what REALLY matters, do cost-benefit analysis of actions and you'll realize 75% of problems you've posted aren't problems at all.

Does it matter if AI colonizes all planets? Free tech from pop-drops.
Does it matter, if your new colony is destroyed by a packet? Colony ship costs 50 minerals, packet 10 times more. And those minerals will never again be used as ships.
Does it matter if AI sends a Nubian after your lone CC guarding a star, when your fleet is destroying AI's production centers?

Stars! is a game, don't take is as a MM chore, esp. not versus AI.


BR, Iztok

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Fri, 19 February 2016 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012
Read the strategy guide - it's all in the wiki

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Mon, 30 May 2016 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
Posting this in the hope that Question is still lurking rather than having left forever.

The constant race to lay minefields, sweep each other's minefields, recolonise bombed-clean planets, and shoot down enemy minelayers, sweepers and freighters doing those things is referred to as "skirmishing". And yes, it is an essential part of warfare in Stars!, as you have learned to your chagrin. Stars! play, particularly between races of near-equal power and/or of incompatible habitability settings, does involve a large amount of micromanagement. In the late-game in battles between humans, turn generation is often slowed down to 3 or even 2 per week just so that everybody has enough time to play Stars! while going on with their life.

So yes, some patience with the chore of skirmishing is required. But it's a skill that you can learn, and fighting the AI is an easy way to pick up the basics. I would suggest playing races with wide habs to start off with, though, as it does make extermination a bit simpler when you can just sit on every planet. The Federation are a legendarily easy race to play, and there's a guide to building and playing them here (go here for the full race specs).

-m9m


[Updated on: Mon, 30 May 2016 19:23]

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Tue, 06 December 2016 11:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
I'm posting this for any future frustrated new player who stumbles across this thread.

First, about playing the AI:

Playing Stars against the AI can be fun in the same way that playing Solitaire can be fun.
Playing Stars against humans is fun in a completely different (and more challenging) way.

Playing against the AI is a good way to practice the mechanics of the game (how things work, what to click on, etc).
Playing against the AI is NOT a good way to *learn* the tactics and strategies that will work against humans.

For example, suppose your goal is to play an effective Super Stealth race in an 8-player game against humans.
First, you read the forum and the wiki so that you understand the mechanics of cloaking and what the SS special toys are.
Then perhaps you play against the AI for a while.
By playing the AI, you get some feedback on your race design. (How many green planets you have, how fast your pop grows, how effectively you can move pop from your HW to new colonies in the early game, etc.)
By playing the AI, you get a feeling for the pace of tech development and when you can expect to be able to field ships of certain types.
By playing the AI, you DO NOT get a better understanding of how to handle early conflict, skirmishes, and full-on wars in a game against humans, because how the AI does those things is entirely different from how humans will do them.


Second, about learning how to play in general:

Stars is not that complex of a game, mechanically speaking. You manage population and three minerals. And sometimes fuel. You perform research, design and build ships, and give the ships orders to go places and do things.

However, there are some intricate details to be learned before you can play well.
Fortunately, pretty much everything you need to know is in the wiki and/or on the forum.
It takes some time to learn those things, to read through the details so that you can apply the concepts ably.

If you do not spend that time, you will be frustrated when things in the game don't work like you expect them to.

If you do spend that time, you will be rewarded.
Stars is among the deepest turn-based strategy games ever made.
A good game of multiplayer stars takes months (or years) to complete, during which time it occupies your mind during a good portion of your waking hours.
If you are the type of person who enjoys such things (which you probably are, because you are reading this right now), that experience is a pleasant one, and not found as abundantly or as essentially in any other game that I know of.

Best of luck. May your planets be large and green, and may your enemies always have the wrong battle orders.

--skoormit



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Getting really frustrated with some things Tue, 06 December 2016 21:52 Go to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
skoormit wrote on Wed, 07 December 2016 03:32
Playing against the AI is a good way to practice the mechanics of the game (how things work, what to click on, etc).
Playing against the AI is NOT a good way to *learn* the tactics and strategies that will work against humans.
[...]
By playing the AI, you get a feeling for the pace of tech development and when you can expect to be able to field ships of certain types.
By playing the AI, you DO NOT get a better understanding of how to handle early conflict, skirmishes, and full-on wars in a game against humans, because how the AI does those things is entirely different from how humans will do them.


Well, yes and no. When somebody's complaining about an AI recolonising everything, that's not too different a problem from facing a human who's going full-Mao. And certainly, the most basic means of stopping recolonisation (minefields, orbital garrisons, colonising it yourself, using multiple fleets to outpace) are the same due to the same basic mechanics being in play.

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