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Re: Clearing the Queue Wed, 28 May 2014 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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neilhoward wrote on Tue, 27 May 2014 22:35
blah blah pedantry


None of those things matter to the issue I am discussing in this thread, that percentage complete for multi-year items appears to get truncated to an integer every year, and the queue accurately incorporates this truncation into its estimates.



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Re: Clearing the Queue Wed, 28 May 2014 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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skoormit wrote on Wed, 28 May 2014 17:50
neilhoward wrote on Tue, 27 May 2014 22:35
blah blah pedantry


None of those things matter to the issue I am discussing in this thread, that percentage complete for multi-year items appears to get truncated to an integer every year, and the queue accurately incorporates this truncation into its estimates.


I'm impressed that it's calculated for the queue - it could easily not have been.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Wed, 28 May 2014 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrvan is currently offline mrvan

 
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Given that it is quite difficult to estimate queue time "analytically", with the effect of pop growth, factories, mines, depletion etc etc, I would not be surprised if the queue estimation actually simulates n turns into the future. That also explains why it gives ??? for large values - it would be too expensive to simulate too many turns. If it does simulate, truncating in the calculation makes sense.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Wed, 28 May 2014 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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mrvan wrote on Wed, 28 May 2014 15:05
Given that it is quite difficult to estimate queue time "analytically", with the effect of pop growth, factories, mines, depletion etc etc, I would not be surprised if the queue estimation actually simulates n turns into the future. That also explains why it gives ??? for large values - it would be too expensive to simulate too many turns. If it does simulate, truncating in the calculation makes sense.


Hmm, yes. It might be a recursive algorithm with a max depth specified. If max depth is hit, return NAN, display ???.

But if it is that sophisticated, why can't it account for terraforming, I wonder?



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icon14.gif  Re: Clearing the Queue Wed, 28 May 2014 23:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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skoormit wrote on Mon, 26 May 2014 14:44
Theory based on further findings:

Stars rounds down each year when applying credit for partially completed items.
The rounding is down to an integer % complete.

For example, if you finish 999 resources of a 1000 resource item, stars gives you credit for 99%, not 99.9%. You'll have to spend 10 resources the next year, not 1.

In other words, for multiyear builds, you lose an average of 0.5% of the cost of the item for each year other than the year of completion.


This is a pretty significant find! Is there any test that could falsify it? Is this universal for ships or planetary as well as orbitals? Has anyone found previous documentation? If it holds true we should put it in the must know section.


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Re: Clearing the Queue Wed, 28 May 2014 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrvan is currently offline mrvan

 
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skoormit wrote on Wed, 28 May 2014 16:29

But if it is that sophisticated, why can't it account for terraforming, I wonder?


Good question. I guess even the Jeffs aren't perfect, and for non-AR it is not crucially important in most cases? (except maybe the jump from -1% to N% on the last min terraform). Is terraforming actually deterministic, in the sense that the field that is terraformed first is non-randomly determined? Because if the field (and hence the gain) is chosen randomly, it would make it more difficult to put in a 'simulation'

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Re: Clearing the Queue Thu, 29 May 2014 04:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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skoormit wrote on Mon, 26 May 2014 15:27
Even more interesting:

If I copy the target Starbase design and add the copy to the queue, I get the same behavior. Base will complete in 4 years, factory will complete in 5 years.

BUT! I can add shields to the new design to increase the upgrade cost to 816, and the queue says it will complete in 4 years.

The queue seems to be acknowledging that I will have 816+ resources to apply over the next 4 years, is charging a hidden tax when I want to apply those resources to different things.


This is the only unexplained example. How would adding five resources to the queue shorten the duration?

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Re: Clearing the Queue Thu, 29 May 2014 04:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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neilhoward wrote on Thu, 29 May 2014 05:36
This is a pretty significant find! Is there any test that could falsify it? Is this universal for ships or planetary as well as orbitals? Has anyone found previous documentation? If it holds true we should put it in the must know section.

Indeed. More tests should be done, tho. I have a related problem in my current game where I have ALL Qs ended with dozens of expensive Nubs so as to devote every last Resource to warshipbuilding, whatever it takes. Yet I'm still getting a few dozen Res devoted to (useless) Research. Those could come from the rounding percents. Whip

There's some related old threads back at r.g.c.s that might give alternate explanations. All in all, my faith in the Q is shaken. New Shocked

Anomalous resource rounding effects (actual vs displayed Resources)
Production Queue Item Completion Time Wrong (Starbase-related)
Lazy Production Workers?
2.7i bug? Build orders not being followed completely
Production Bug?



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Re: Clearing the Queue Thu, 29 May 2014 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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Closer home, this explains
Why are resources allocated to research when the planets can use all available resources
http://starsautohost.org/sahforum2/index.php?t=msg&goto= 55073



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I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Thu, 29 May 2014 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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Bystander wrote on Thu, 29 May 2014 09:39
skoormit wrote on Mon, 26 May 2014 15:27
Even more interesting:

If I copy the target Starbase design and add the copy to the queue, I get the same behavior. Base will complete in 4 years, factory will complete in 5 years.

BUT! I can add shields to the new design to increase the upgrade cost to 816, and the queue says it will complete in 4 years.

The queue seems to be acknowledging that I will have 816+ resources to apply over the next 4 years, is charging a hidden tax when I want to apply those resources to different things.


This is the only unexplained example. How would adding five resources to the queue shorten the duration?


by losing less to the ~.5% tax.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Fri, 30 May 2014 12:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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Bystander wrote on Thu, 29 May 2014 03:39
skoormit wrote on Mon, 26 May 2014 15:27
Even more interesting:

If I copy the target Starbase design and add the copy to the queue, I get the same behavior. Base will complete in 4 years, factory will complete in 5 years.

BUT! I can add shields to the new design to increase the upgrade cost to 816, and the queue says it will complete in 4 years.

The queue seems to be acknowledging that I will have 816+ resources to apply over the next 4 years, is charging a hidden tax when I want to apply those resources to different things.


This is the only unexplained example. How would adding five resources to the queue shorten the duration?


Possibly I was not perfectly clear.

Adding cost to the base upgrade (up to 816) keeps the completion of the base upgrade at 4 years. It does not make the factory also complete in 4 years.



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Re: Clearing the Queue Fri, 30 May 2014 13:18 Go to previous message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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neilhoward wrote on Wed, 28 May 2014 22:36
skoormit wrote on Mon, 26 May 2014 14:44
Theory based on further findings:

Stars rounds down each year when applying credit for partially completed items.
The rounding is down to an integer % complete.

For example, if you finish 999 resources of a 1000 resource item, stars gives you credit for 99%, not 99.9%. You'll have to spend 10 resources the next year, not 1.

In other words, for multiyear builds, you lose an average of 0.5% of the cost of the item for each year other than the year of completion.


This is a pretty significant find! Is there any test that could falsify it? Is this universal for ships or planetary as well as orbitals? Has anyone found previous documentation? If it holds true we should put it in the must know section.


It is certainly a falsifiable theory. Any given test could provide data that indicates that completion percentage is not truncated.

I have not tested for build types other than starbases (both from scratch and with upgrades). I have no reason to suspect that the queue calculates things differently for other build types.

I'm not sure the issue merits attention in the must know section. After all, the effect is small, the circumstances are uncommon, and the estimated completion time displayed in the queue is correct. The people most likely to notice it are the crazy micromanagers with their custom spreadsheets... Rolling Eyes




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