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Clearing the Queue Sun, 25 May 2014 14:13 Go to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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Someone explain this to me:

At a new planet in year Z, I queue a Space Dock, which will finish in one year (the line is green).
Next in the queue is autobuild factories, which will finish in 1-6 years (the line is blue).
Next in the queue is autobuild mines, which will finish in 6-7 years (the line is black).

In year Z + 1, the Space Dock is finished.
The next thing in the queue is a partially completed factory that will be completed this year (line is green).
Next in the queue are the same autobuild entries. Factories are still blue, mines are still black.

Now, I want to upgrade my Space Dock to a Starbase, ahead of the autobuild orders.
I don't yet have any mines, but I have plenty more minerals on the surface than the starbase upgrade costs.
The starbase upgrade costs 799 resources. My planet is producing 204 resources per year, and is not over 100% capacity (I'm not losing pop each year).
Therefore it should take 4 years to upgrade the base ( 4 * 204 = 816, plus some from pop growth).
Since I get 816 resources over 4 years, I have 17 extra resources. That's more than enough to build a factory, so I add the starbase upgrade after the partially built factory.

But the queue tells me it will take 5 years. Why?

If I move the starbase upgrade above the partially built factory, the queue says the upgrade will take 4 years and the factory will take 5. But I have enough resources and minerals to build both of them in 4 years.

(I've heard of something about an invisible line of mineral alchemy at the top of the queue, but I couldn't find anything about it with a forum search.)


[Updated on: Sun, 25 May 2014 14:14]




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Re: Clearing the Queue Sun, 25 May 2014 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous Coward
Strange thing indeed. You should indeed be able to complete both in 4 years. Have you played these 4 years and saw what happened?

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Re: Clearing the Queue Sun, 25 May 2014 16:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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You may not have the option to run four turns immediately (such as playing a hosted game).

Are you sure you don't have one or two percent research dedicated to that planet? It says research is 204 of 204, correct?

And nothing is greyed out above like terraforming?


I know there are at least 3 reasons for the reverse problem - queues finishing later than predicted, but none of those situations apply here.


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Re: Clearing the Queue Sun, 25 May 2014 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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And continuing with some silly possibilities:

By plenty of extra minerals on surface, you mean it has three or four extra germanium for the factory?

No freighters in orbit with waypoint zero tasks to load minerals?

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Re: Clearing the Queue Sun, 25 May 2014 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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Plenty of minerals. At least 50 more in each than is required for the upgrade.

No freighters in orbit with wp0 orders to upload. Interesting thought, though, but I don't think the queue looks for that.

Nothing contributed to research. 204 of 204 resources available.



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Re: Clearing the Queue Sun, 25 May 2014 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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Can you check one thing?

Remove the partially completed factory and add a new factory above the new station.

Does it now show 4 years or still 5 years?



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Re: Clearing the Queue Sun, 25 May 2014 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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I believe starbase upgrades (hull changes, that is) are counted as the full price of the new base (without the discount) in the queue's algorithms for calculating time-to-complete.

[Updated on: Sun, 25 May 2014 20:59]

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Re: Clearing the Queue Mon, 26 May 2014 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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Quote:
I believe starbase upgrades (hull changes, that is) are counted as the full price of the new base (without the discount) in the queue's algorithms for calculating time-to-complete.



I ran a test of upgrading hull from orbital fort to space station. Same components on each. OF costs 251. SS costs 811. On a planet with 355 resources that already has the OF, added the SS to an empty queue. It show completion in two years.

Queue on this planet correctly shows resources needed as 686, giving me 50% credit for the OF when building the SS.

If the duration display was broken and ignoring the OF, it would have shown three years.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Mon, 26 May 2014 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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nmid wrote on Sun, 25 May 2014 16:54
Can you check one thing?

Remove the partially completed factory and add a new factory above the new station.

Does it now show 4 years or still 5 years?


Still shows 5 years.



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Re: Clearing the Queue Mon, 26 May 2014 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 25 May 2014 19:40
I believe starbase upgrades (hull changes, that is) are counted as the full price of the new base (without the discount) in the queue's algorithms for calculating time-to-complete.


This is true when you add multiple starbase designs to the queue at the same time.

For example, at a planet with no orbital, if you queue an empty starbase followed by a fully-armed/shielded starbase, the completion time for the second starbase does not take into account that you only have to pay the price of the empty starbase once.

But that's not the case here.


[Updated on: Mon, 26 May 2014 15:16]




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Re: Clearing the Queue Mon, 26 May 2014 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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Even more interesting:

If I copy the target Starbase design and add the copy to the queue, I get the same behavior. Base will complete in 4 years, factory will complete in 5 years.

BUT! I can add shields to the new design to increase the upgrade cost to 816, and the queue says it will complete in 4 years.

The queue seems to be acknowledging that I will have 816+ resources to apply over the next 4 years, is charging a hidden tax when I want to apply those resources to different things.



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Re: Clearing the Queue Mon, 26 May 2014 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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A real long shot, but try keeping the 811 resources. If possible shift shields to a shields/armor slot vs. a shield one. Or swap the beams and torpedoes. See if any shifting of the same components to different areas gets you back to 4 years for SS and the factory.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Mon, 26 May 2014 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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Theory based on further findings:

Stars rounds down each year when applying credit for partially completed items.
The rounding is down to an integer % complete.

For example, if you finish 999 resources of a 1000 resource item, stars gives you credit for 99%, not 99.9%. You'll have to spend 10 resources the next year, not 1.

In other words, for multiyear builds, you lose an average of 0.5% of the cost of the item for each year other than the year of completion.


[Updated on: Mon, 26 May 2014 17:44]




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Re: Clearing the Queue Mon, 26 May 2014 23:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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skoormit wrote on Tue, 27 May 2014 07:44
Theory based on further findings:

Stars rounds down each year when applying credit for partially completed items.
The rounding is down to an integer % complete.

For example, if you finish 999 resources of a 1000 resource item, stars gives you credit for 99%, not 99.9%. You'll have to spend 10 resources the next year, not 1.

In other words, for multiyear builds, you lose an average of 0.5% of the cost of the item for each year other than the year of completion.


How is this relevant? The base isn't partially completed in your current year.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 01:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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Have you increased any tech levels relevant to the dock or any of its components since building the dock? Are any of these components also on the SB? Have you checked for those components to be in matching slots for the upgrade (corresponding id locations)? Do you have IT, SS, ISB, GR, or BET?

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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 07:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrvan is currently offline mrvan

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 26 May 2014 23:26
skoormit wrote on Tue, 27 May 2014 07:44

Stars rounds down each year when applying credit for partially completed items.
The rounding is down to an integer % complete.


How is this relevant? The base isn't partially completed in your current year.


It does make sense and should be quite easy to test.

204 / 799 = .255, so if this is rounded down it will be exactly 25% complete after the first year, etc. The last year, .25*799=199.75=200 resources will be used for the upgrade, and only 4 are left for building a factory

If the first year a factory is built first for 10 resources, 194/816=.237 so the upgrade will be complete only 23%, and hence take a year longer than expected.

(edit: I guess this adds additional evidence to the rule of thumb that you shouldn't build something if it takes more than 1 or 2 years Smile )





[Updated on: Tue, 27 May 2014 07:06]

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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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When doing the calculation, you would have to add in growth of population (if any).

I have a test of a planet with SD upgrading to SS. The displayed resources on right side of build queue is 1035. The planet has 335 current resources and the stated build time is three years. 3 x 335 is only 1005, 30 resources short. Population growth in year 1 would be 26 extra resources, but not available until year 2. So it looks like it take multiple years of population production growth into the equation for long builds.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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It was factored into the check..

Skoormit tested it in a new universe where he genned 2 years and then added up the resources for both years.
What I did was to queue up Mineral Alchemy and installations for a 2 year period and checked the exact resources that I had before I went to year 3. (I.e. I didn't simply multiple year 1 resources * 2)




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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 26 May 2014 22:26
skoormit wrote on Tue, 27 May 2014 07:44
Theory based on further findings:

Stars rounds down each year when applying credit for partially completed items.
The rounding is down to an integer % complete.

For example, if you finish 999 resources of a 1000 resource item, stars gives you credit for 99%, not 99.9%. You'll have to spend 10 resources the next year, not 1.

In other words, for multiyear builds, you lose an average of 0.5% of the cost of the item for each year other than the year of completion.


How is this relevant? The base isn't partially completed in your current year.


It will be partially completed for the next three years. Each year, the completion percentage gets truncated. The queue knows this.



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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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Bystander wrote on Tue, 27 May 2014 09:04
When doing the calculation, you would have to add in growth of population (if any).

I have a test of a planet with SD upgrading to SS. The displayed resources on right side of build queue is 1035. The planet has 335 current resources and the stated build time is three years. 3 x 335 is only 1005, 30 resources short. Population growth in year 1 would be 26 extra resources, but not available until year 2. So it looks like it take multiple years of population production growth into the equation for long builds.


Of course. The completion time estimates of queued items incorporate projected population growth based on the present planet value. It also incorporates additional resources from queued factories (regular or autobuild orders). (The estimates do not factor in additional installation capacity or pop growth from queued terraforming items, but that's separate from this issue.)



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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
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neilhoward wrote on Tue, 27 May 2014 00:16
Have you increased any tech levels relevant to the dock or any of its components since building the dock? Are any of these components also on the SB? Have you checked for those components to be in matching slots for the upgrade (corresponding id locations)? Do you have IT, SS, ISB, GR, or BET?


I have reproduced the effect in a testbed with no research being performed.

Component upgrades don't matter. Hull upgrades don't matter. PRTs and LRTs don't matter. Whatever the particulars of the upgrade, the queue will tell you the cost of the upgrade. And each year, your progress, as a percentage, gets rounded down to a whole number. You lose on average 0.5% of the cost of the item each year (except the year of completion, because you stop building at 100% and the item is no longer in the queue).


[Updated on: Tue, 27 May 2014 14:37]




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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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So by that token, a world producing 25 resources and having no growth and not building factories could never build a project of over 2500 resources. In fact, it would never make any progress. Ouch.

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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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Just to note, I've never seen a queue that crosses 100 years.



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Re: Clearing the Queue Tue, 27 May 2014 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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skoormit wrote on Tue, 27 May 2014 11:36


Component upgrades don't matter. Hull upgrades don't matter.

Perhaps not in your current scenario. There is a well documented effect of miniaturization causing the queue cost panel to show inaccurate costs. These sometime match the displayed build time, sometime not.

Quote:

PRTs and LRTs don't matter. Whatever the particulars of the upgrade, the queue will tell you the cost of the upgrade.

For the above reason, yes racial traits do matter. And, no the queue is not reliable for orbital upgrades and tech gains (all kinds'a gains) related to components. You might want to ask m.a&nbspstars, Bystander, or nmid about the drama that it can cause. ROFLMAO Game ender! Deal



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[Updated on: Tue, 27 May 2014 23:38]

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Re: Clearing the Queue Wed, 28 May 2014 01:05 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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nmid wrote on Wed, 28 May 2014 07:59
Just to note, I've never seen a queue that crosses 100 years.


Play AR sometime, and try to build something on a world which doesn't have any remote miners yet. Laughing


EDIT: Also, I've confirmed that indeed a world with 1 resource will make no progress on a project of 146 resources (still shows 0% after 8 years).


[Updated on: Wed, 28 May 2014 01:26]

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