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Tri Imune AR? Fri, 11 April 2003 07:30 Go to next message
Kuperus is currently offline Kuperus

 
Crewman 3rd Class

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Has anybody been able to create a tri-imune AR that rocks and kicks ass?

Sjoerd Hidde

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Fri, 11 April 2003 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Kuperus wrote on Fri, 11 April 2003 13:30

Has anybody been able to create a tri-imune AR that rocks and kicks ass?

Sjoerd Hidde


Hoie Sjoerd,

To answer your question: I never tried it and never saw one. But given that even the "best" ARs are very hard to play (=keep alive long enough) I would say a 3-i would be even worse since the 3-i will suck away your RW points from all the other stuff your "need".
The only ass such a design would kick is an artifical one. Grin

groeten,
mch

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Fri, 11 April 2003 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kuperus is currently offline Kuperus

 
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why is that....

one can create a 6% growth AR or a 7% and sacrifice a lot...
you will get 6% growth on all your planets...

of course your initial growth on the HW is on average a bit lower than the rest....

SHK

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sat, 12 April 2003 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tprescott is currently offline tprescott

 
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Quote:

one can create a 6% growth AR or a 7% and sacrifice a lot...
you will get 6% growth on all your planets...



The problem with low growth tri-immunes is that once you exploit the spreading aspect of the AR growth formula, you are left with a... well, low growth race. It takes too long for the population to fill in and your empire becomes too fragile to defend.

Unless you plan to intersettle with another race that will defend you, I don't think you will have much luck with a 3I AR after the initial skirmishes begin.


Tom


[Updated on: Sat, 12 April 2003 00:45]

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sat, 12 April 2003 09:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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The true advantage of the lower growth points for AR is the 3x capacity of a death star.

Essentially a death star can triple your colonist output rate per planet compared to any other race (excluding JOAT and ORBM races). Which would make a tri-immune 6% growth race an 18% growth race technically.

Damned if I know how the hell to A get to Death stars with such a pap race and B survive long enough to get the people in the starbases!!

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sat, 12 April 2003 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
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freakyboy wrote on Sat, 12 April 2003 09:08

The true advantage of the lower growth points for AR is the 3x capacity of a death star.

Essentially a death star can triple your colonist output rate per planet compared to any other race (excluding JOAT and ORBM races). Which would make a tri-immune 6% growth race an 18% growth race technically.

Damned if I know how the hell to A get to Death stars with such a pap race and B survive long enough to get the people in the starbases!!


There is a way... but it involves getting into one of Xdude's monster games that use what is called an 'AFON start' where you begin the game with about 1 million pop. However, most of his games along these lines ban AR races since they are a massive pain to handle while he does all the pre-gen/jump start set-up to get the scenario in place.

- Kurt

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sun, 13 April 2003 02:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tprescott is currently offline tprescott

 
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freakyboy wrote on Sat, 12 April 2003 22:08


The true advantage of the lower growth points for AR is the 3x capacity of a death star.

Essentially a death star can triple your colonist output rate per planet compared to any other race (excluding JOAT and ORBM races). Which would make a tri-immune 6% growth race an 18% growth race technically.


The Deathstar's 3 million capacity does increase the the population export rate for that particular deathstar, but only after you manage to fill it by growing your population at a paltry 6%. And while at any comparison hold level the the Deathstar's output in number of colonists per year is equal to the output of an 18% growth rate race on a single planet, the AR's growth rate is technically still 6% - not 18% - because you will need three times the population to reach that hold level. In the time it takes you to fill a deathstar to that level, an 18% growth rate race will have many more planets producing at that level.

If you start with 100,000 population, it will take a 6% AR 35 years to fill a deathstar to 750,000 (25% hold) assuming there are no delays caused from starbase upgrading. Then after the 35 years, you have just one planet producing 45,000 colonists per year.

Any 18% Race will achieve that output (45,000 per year) from the initial 100,000 in only 6 years. By the 8th year, an 18% Race will have 100,000 on a second planet. By year 10, that race will have a third planet starting from 100,000. After 12 years, a fourth planet will be established with 100,000. In year 14, planet five comes online with 100,000, and - more significantly - planet two has reached the 25% hold. This race now exports 90,000 per year from two planets. So, in year 16 this race has planets six and seven up and running with 100,000; and planet three has reached its 25% hold so we are exporting 135,000 from three planets now. I'll stop the progression here as the 18% Race is already producing three times the output that the AR will only achieve after another 18 years of growth.

W
...

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sun, 13 April 2003 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Exactly my point. The 3x population export is fantastic on say a 15% or higher growth rate, and it's not too difficult to get to the 33% capacity mark (the optimum for population export).

Which is why getting to death stars will level out the playing field... but the field is already so unbalanced because you had to work so hard to get there!!

Another disadvantage of low growth AR races is the 2.5% (i think) death rate in space. Since AR's have to transport population LOTS (only way to keep the resources per planet reasonable) low growth with a relatively high (by comparison) death rate is a real killer.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sun, 13 April 2003 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tprescott is currently offline tprescott

 
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freakyboy wrote on Sun, 13 April 2003 20:34

Exactly my point. The 3x population export is fantastic on say a 15% or higher growth rate, and it's not too difficult to get to the 33% capacity mark (the optimum for population export).


We are obviously in agreement and both understand what is going on with low growth ARs and deathstars. My only gripe was that Deathstars do not technically make a 6% race grow at 18%. Even though the increased capacity allows pop exports to keep pace with 18% GR planets, it still grows at 6% and takes forever to reach reach the same capacity as an 18% GR planet.

freakyboy wrote on Sun, 13 April 2003 20:34


Another disadvantage of low growth AR races is the 2.5% (i think) death rate in space. Since AR's have to transport population LOTS (only way to keep the resources per planet reasonable) low growth with a relatively high (by comparison) death rate is a real killer.


This is easy for the 6% AR to overcome. Just fill colonizers and transports with no more than 2200 colonists. At 6% growth, there won't be many colonists to move anyway. DDs with a cargo pod can double as self-defense and transport ships. Just remember to split them all so that no cargo hold has more than 2200. This procedure allows for no transit deaths at all. Of course you lose any shild stacking or distributed damage by doing this, but at 6% growth you can't afford any transit losses at all - as you have already indicated.


Tom


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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sun, 13 April 2003 23:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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tprescott wrote on Sun, 13 April 2003 07:02

Even though the increased capacity allows pop exports to keep pace with 18% GR planets, it still grows at 6% and takes forever to reach reach the same capacity as an 18% GR planet.

That only bothers me when I'm filling the first deathstar, or ultra-station. After that, you just keep exporting colonists to the next ultra-station or deathstar until it reaches the 25% or 33% threshhold, and export to the next from both of those. You don't really feel the pain that way, although I'm not disputing anything you're saying.

freakyboy wrote on Sun, 13 April 2003 20:34


Another disadvantage of low growth AR races is the 2.5% (i think) death rate in space. Since AR's have to transport population LOTS (only way to keep the resources per planet reasonable) low growth with a relatively high (by comparison) death rate is a real killer.


Quote:

This is easy for the 6% AR to overcome. Just fill colonizers and transports with no more than 2200 colonists. At 6% growth, there won't be many colonists to move anyway. DDs with a cargo pod can double as self-defense and transport ships. Just remember to split them all so that no cargo hold has more than 2200. This procedure allows for no transit deaths at all. Of course you lose any shild stacking or distributed damage by doing this, but at 6% growth you can't afford any transit losses at all - as you have already indicated.
Well, I don't know about a 6% growth AR, but there's no way I'm going to produce freighters and have them running around with 2200 colonists in them. Personally I could care less about the casualties those spineless beings take from warp speed, I'm cramming as many into the freighter as I can. Do I care of their comfort? Obviously not, or I would fly them in galleons, in style. Twisted Evil (It's good to be the king!) I do limit my colonizers to 2200 colonists because the difference betweeen 2200 and 2500 is negligible anyway, but with freighters, I just click that little check mark to hide the message and then it doesn't happen
...




I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Mon, 14 April 2003 02:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tprescott is currently offline tprescott

 
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zoid wrote on Mon, 14 April 2003 12:18


Well, I don't know about a 6% growth AR, but there's no way I'm going to produce freighters and have them running around with 2200 colonists in them. Personally I could care less about the casualties those spineless beings take from warp speed, I'm cramming as many into the freighter as I can.


For a mid-growth or better AR, I agree: Full freighters ahead and damn the transit loss. Perhaps also for a 6% AR once a Deathstar (or ultra station maybe) reaches its 25% hold - if it lives that long of course.

But if you try a 6% AR, maximizing population growth (and minimizing population losses) is critical during the initial stages of development. You are right: freighters are a waste of capacity to haul only 2200 colonists. That is why a cargo pod destroyer becomes attractive. You get enough cargo capacity in a hearty armed vessel that can also provide some self-defence at a time when your fledgling empire does not have the minerals or resources to produce separate freighter and armed fleets.

Before anyone thinks I am saying that a 6% AR with cargo DDs is a good idea to try, I am not. I am only presenting an idea to make the best of a bad situation (6% Tri-immune AR - the subject of this thread).



[Updated on: Mon, 14 April 2003 02:16]

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Mon, 14 April 2003 06:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
regiss

 
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I've actually seen a 3i AR in "Battle for the Magellan Cloud",
it was controlled by ExaMind.

Nobody touched him, couse he could have been taken out at any
time with anything. When he dropped, few amp nubians was enough
to clear his jihad ultra. Mobile forces included colloidal CCs.

And there was lot of buzzing around with colonizers, which
served as transports (seems like) along with low filled medium
freighters.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Mon, 14 April 2003 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Yeah. I think he used the same race in Partners in time... until he dropped... and I got lumped into a really bad situation.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 15 June 2005 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dreadlordnaf is currently offline dreadlordnaf

 
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I played a race like this once in a game. They are not a good race to play. First off u need to expand fast , yet this race was not designed for it. You have no super cheap mini colonizer like HE races do and are forced to build normal ones. This wouldnt be so bad with a normal race but if you have bad luck and start with a low mineral concentration you are scrwed. The intrinsic mining ability is horrible and even with your 2 remote miners that u start with, your rate might not be more than 10k a year with a bad concentration which will basically prevent you from expanding.

In addition the race stalls big time mid game after youve done all your expanding. Once you can no more expand by colonizing planets your growth is pathetic. In addition you are now left with a huge empire of very fragile orbital forts. An armed scout could wipe out half your empire literally. This race is appealing on paper but i dont advise it. -Dread Lord Naf

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Fri, 17 June 2005 04:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Braindead is currently offline Braindead

 
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Kuperus wrote on Fri, 11 April 2003 13:57

one can create a 6% growth AR or a 7% and sacrifice a lot... you will get 6% growth on all your planets...

With 6% or 7% growth rate you'll get killed before getting enough pop to colonize another planet.

Don't try it agains other players Smile

Braindead



Mess with the best, die like the rest!

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sat, 07 January 2006 01:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
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Jumping slightly off topic, but there is some chance that a bi immune AR could be made to work - I just testbedded one in a tiny normal (32 stars), and got 11k resources by 2450, Death Stars at 2446 (no research on weapons though).

15% growth, but 1/2500 pop settings, and about half the stars were bright green by 2450.

It's still somewhat weaker than the 1 immune, so I don't think I'd take it into a real game.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 12 September 2007 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BunBun vonWhiskers is currently offline BunBun vonWhiskers

 
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On the other hand, a Tri-Immune AR race with its feet under it is a giant extended middle finger to PP races. It is nice, when playing against a bunch of AI opponents, to simply ignore all the packets whizzing about.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 12 September 2007 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Braindead wrote on Fri, 17 June 2005 18:05

With 6% or 7% growth rate you'll get killed before getting enough pop to colonize another planet.


Stop thinking like a factoried race Wink

6% or 7% AR starts colonising on year 2400. You don't wait for 25% capacity... This is the only type of race where you actively try to shrink your HW population to 1% capacity as fast as you possibly can. And no, that wasn't a typo, I really did write 1% capacity.

Laughing

3i AR race tries to spread it's population as evenly and thinly as possible, to abuse those sqrt formulas to get far more resources than one would expect from such a small population.

These races perform *great* in first 20 years... Absurdly fast - with a 6% AR I can outperform my fastest -f JOAT through to 2420... Very lethal. But when the clock gets around to about 2450 you'll be feeling significant pain, as even with perfect play that 6% growth really holds you back in the mid term. If you can grab a good territory during that early strength, and hold on to it through your mid-game weakness, then in late game you'll be looking very very nasty indeed... But don't count on surviving that long.

I wouldn't play one in a real game, the growth curve through the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s is just too poor...


[Updated on: Wed, 12 September 2007 21:43]

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 13 September 2007 04:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 13 September 2007 03:36

then in late game you'll be looking very very nasty indeed... But don't count on surviving that long.


So true. Late game for this kind of an AR starts somewhere around turn 120. Laughing

BR, Iztok

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 13 September 2007 04:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Wed, 12 September 2007 21:36

These races perform *great* in first 20 years... Absurdly fast - with a 6% AR I can outperform my fastest -f JOAT through to 2420... Very lethal. But when the clock gets around to about 2450 you'll be feeling significant pain, as even with perfect play that 6% growth really holds you back in the mid term. If you can grab a good territory during that early strength, and hold on to it through your mid-game weakness, then in late game you'll be looking very very nasty indeed... But don't count on surviving that long.

I wouldn't play one in a real game, the growth curve through the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s is just too poor...

I saw a 3i AR a while back & the first 20 years or so did indeed put him at #1 & he was using CP cruisers to put pressure on a neighbouring IT shortly thereafter but by around 2480 he was #10 of 10 & reduced to a packet thrower.

If the game reaches the 3rd century & you're still alive you should be in very good shape. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 13 September 2007 10:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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it has possibilities in a low growth game where other races are limited to single figure growth rates.

But you are still going to get that horrible middle period where everyone else passes you without trying.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 13 September 2007 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BunBun vonWhiskers is currently offline BunBun vonWhiskers

 
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Tri-immune ARs are indeed great at the start, as you can just spit out colony ships as quickly as you can and colonize everything in sight. Short-range scouting is not really necessary, as anything within easy scouting range is a colony world in the making, and the conversion of a colony ship and 1k pop into a resource generating planet pays for itself in a few years, regardless of mineral concentration.

But once you have colonized everything within easy reach of your home world, you hit a wall. Freighters can help you shuttle population around, but you still need to build a colony ship for each world you want to colonize, and you donít get cheap colonizers like HE. Colony ships can pay for themselves in a few years, but only after they colonize a planet. If the nearest uninhabited planet is ten years away, you need to factor that time into your profitability equations.

The fewer colonists at any world, the more efficient they are, but you still will have fewer resources at those individual worlds. Your empire will also consist of a bunch of unarmed orbital forts. You can put a few lasers and some shields on them so you canít be wiped out instantly by a couple of scouts, but no individual world is going to be able to defend itself from a determined attacker. You can fort up, tech up, lay mine fields, and otherwise try to keep your empire intact, but any way you play it 3i AR gets its early resource advantages by spreading thin, and that makes individual systems open for attack.

Tri-Immune ARs need that most precious of strategic commodities, time. If you canít cash in your early production edge and resource boosts though energy tech advances into time, and lots of it, you are dead.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sat, 19 July 2008 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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On 3i ARs, how much pop should you put into a coloniser? 2200 locks up pop for a long time making it harder to spread (and depletes your HW), while 1000 won't keep your HW pop down, and goes through your Ir like an AMP DN through laser scouts Very Happy. How much, and how much pop is "the right amount" to have on a world before you start sapping it with freighters?

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Mon, 21 July 2008 05:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 19 July 2008 09:12

how much pop is "the right amount" to have on a world before you start sapping it with freighters?

Equall amount everywhere is your goal. If you have one planet at 20k and the other at 2k the 20k planet produces only about three times as much resources as the 2k planet. If you'd spread 20k pop on 10 planets you'd get twice the resources and "mines" as from previous combo. The only exception from that is your HW, because it has a SB and you need to produce ships somewhere (3-i AR usually doesn't have ISb, its ~7% growth makes them significantly less usefull). Just don't deplete the HW below capability to produce ~2 Pintas per turn.

BR, Iztok

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Mon, 21 July 2008 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
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So the HW pop hold level should actually decrease over time, as you get energy tech?

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