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Re: Tri Imune AR? Mon, 21 July 2008 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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Registered: May 2008
Purty much, yeah. Although I run for 3-4 pintas/turn, keeps stripping colonies better.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Tue, 22 July 2008 05:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
Thought it was time this moved to the tri-imm thread Wink

magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 09:01

I can't exactly help the fact that I'm crap, what did I do wrong? How did you get better results? Surprised I put on B:MM, AccBBS, and that's it I think. NRE hinders economic development slightly due to artifacts.

No, I had lower resources. You weren't crap - I was the one that was lazy and had the lower res count. Where did I say you were crap?

You had Beginner Max mins? Oh, nice boost. I didn't even think of checking that. Poo. I'd've felt guilty checking that one. As it was, conc came in high thanks to 50+ pts into min concs.

NRSE is pretty tempting. Maybe I'll try it with that too 'one day'. That would give ... umm ... AR: Tri-imm, 6%, IFE, ARM, ISB, NRSE, NAS, RS; 8 divisor; 3.5 cheap (probably W, En, Con cheap, El normal for me thanks) and a few points left over I reckon. Might be -1 or -2 that would be bad. I should open Stars! later and check Smile

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Tue, 22 July 2008 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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12 points left over. It would be 25 if you dropped RS though, and there's reason to, with a 3i you're going to be using SBs a lot more for defense and those are better by a long way without RS, especially late. So if you get 13 points from doing it...

Edit: The reason I said that was that you had much higher tech than me, as well as decent remotes, and similar amounts of planets, with a race that wasn't a throwaway testbed race. And with BMM turned off, as well as NRE on (wasn't it) giving you no free res for tech. I feel unworthy. Not Worthy Dunce

And I think NRSE wouldn't do well with a race that's so res-limited and which isn't germ-limited. The IS-10 doesn't go well on colonisers you know. The TGFS is very important once you get past 2420.


[Updated on: Tue, 22 July 2008 07:27]

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Tue, 22 July 2008 08:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
First off - it is virtually impossible to design a 3i AR that can beat players that know what they are doing.
however if you insist
Try this
RipplAr
3i
6%
1/8
IFE ISB ARM NAS NRSE (RS)
eN,C,W cheap PLB expensive
Min Concs

Pay for ISB with NRSE and making a tech expensive (possibly also with RS). An alternative would be to go 1/9.

Your research is done by your colonies, your homeworld builds ships.
As many initalColonisers, then colonyships with a fuel pod (called TinyFreighters TF), and scout boosters.

Turn 1 colonise with your starting colony ship - get en2 by research and all the rest is on ships.
Turn 2 All resources from homeworld on ships aim to use all and build in the same turn (try not nearly building a coloniser - instead actually build another scout).
Using your colonies for research get to en3 or 4 then prop2.
By this time you will have colonised all worlds within 2 years travel at W9 (add scouts if they make you move faster, even if you have to crash colonise).
When you get prop2 all your Colonisers and TFs should now have FMs on them.
Research energy until you almost run out of iron on your homeworld.
Your TFs should be adding another 22kT to all planets.
TFs should return Iron etc from all planets within 1 years travel to the homeworld.
When you have colonised all within 3 years of the homeworld - change research from En to Con.
Get con4 and then build Docks on all iron rich worlds (particularly the furthest worlds out).
You are now building colonisers at the edge.
Your TFs are moving pop and minerals out towards the edge.
What it really wants to look like at this point is ripples on a pond constantly moving outwards.
Energy first and con+elec for miners

By the way the pop breaks for worlds at
Minimum 17kT - produces 1kT of pop a turn (you should only do worlds this big from secondary colonisation - 22kT is good until your homeworld is down to 75kT)
34kT - produces 2kT
51kT - produces 3kT
68kT - produces 4kT

If a world gets above 68kT and you have anywhere
...




Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Tue, 22 July 2008 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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No offense, but I think you're paying through the nose there. NRSE and expensive prop means your colonisers will never go far fast, and ISB is a bit of a waste. I think it's better to stay at your HW and just spam colos from there indefinitely, picking up people from your highest pop worlds and the HW. Works fairly well, because it's always more profitable to send the people to a new world than to one already colonised. Then once you can't keep up, use just a couple of the TFs to bring all the spare pop to one world and build an SB there. Then repeat the process. Since I have TGFS engines and you don't, I think my coloing will be faster, and in the end, that's mostly what matters, not the spread.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Tue, 22 July 2008 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
m9m are you using Tiny Packed or Small Normal?

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Tue, 22 July 2008 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
With a FM (and if needed a boost - either a TF or a scout) my ships can go at W9 for 3 years.
For a cost of 50mins I can build a Dock wherever I want in 1-2 turns.

Lets assume a straight line with a world helpfully placed every 1 years travel at W9.
Up to 3 years out we both colonise at the same time (actually I might be ahead of you as you will be researching prop but lets ignore that).
To colonise the 4th planet out we differ.
You build a ship (1 turn) and fly it out (4 turns) = 5 turns.
I build a Dock (1 turn) build a Ship (1 turn) then fly it (1 turn) = 3 turns.
5th planet out
You- Build 1 fly 5 = 6
Me - Build 1 fly 2 = 3

Now I will need to be moving extra minerals about as building a dock and a coloniser will take all the minerals from 2 freshly colonised worlds.
However you will be needing to bring the minerals back from your worlds to your homeworld as you will be in iron crunch mode.

Also even by Iron comparision I can build 3-4 docks for the cost of you building a single new starbase.

I think I will be faster than you.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 23 July 2008 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1183
Registered: May 2008
But I have the TGFS, which is a better engine for long journeys, I don't have to build docks (I'd only build a second starbase around 2440 or so) and I don't have to manage minerals as much, as I dodge the iron crunch by a year or two.

@ Soobie: Small packed. Crying or Very Sad

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 23 July 2008 05:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 13:42

But I have the TGFS, which is a better engine for long journeys, I don't have to build docks (I'd only build a second starbase around 2440 or so) and I don't have to manage minerals as much, as I dodge the iron crunch by a year or two.
Time to restart the IFE/NRSE vs all scoops discussion? May be worth it's own thread or reactivating on old thread. Maybe ... this one?

I'm so inclined to agree with Joseph on this. It's so easy to throw up docks and distribute minerals and fire off edged pop while balancing from the centre out. Just saying.

Smile

Quote:

@ Soobie: Small packed. Crying or Very Sad
Ok.


[Updated on: Wed, 23 July 2008 05:59]

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 23 July 2008 09:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 156
Registered: February 2005
Location: Shanghai
I was amused by how that IFE/NRSE discussion appeared just as the issue is under discussion both in the AR and WM forums (and, from the way Iconian introduced it, I don't think he even noticed).

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 24 July 2008 00:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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That's because it didn't. I necroed it in response to Soobie's post.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 24 July 2008 05:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 156
Registered: February 2005
Location: Shanghai
Oh yeah - I saw the posts were from July and didn't even notice that it said July 2007 Embarassed

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 24 July 2008 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
I did a test bed to support my colonising assertions. (interestingly I had enough race points to untick NRSE - but I didnt use ramscoops (apart from FM) it will be usefull when building warships to have the rams though).

Small packed (ACBBS ticked all else unticked).
Year 10
17, 3, 11, 0, 0, 19, 1050, 94, 1
tech 7, 5, 2, 5, 0, 0
Up till now all colonisation has been from homeworld, nothing has been more than 2 years travel.
All colony ships have gone at optimum warp (ie couldnt have got there faster unless at W10).
From 2411 I will also be colonising from other worlds with docks.
Year 20
42, 25, 20, 0, 0. 36, 2788, 286, 1
Tech 10, 9, 3, 9, 4, 1
As you can see at this point I am about as spread out as I would want to be. I started making some miners a turn or so ago. If I had wanted better resources I could have by researching Energy above 10 but I wanted to try for weap10 (about 200 resources short). The idea being that I could stick some r3 beams on my docks and fend off a simple attack.

My homeworld has 95kT my next largest world has 50kT it then goes down gradually to my smallest world has 23kT.
I could build a pinta at all my worlds that were at 40kT and take another 10-15 worlds over the next 5 turns
(for example all worlds are currently making pintas or bases - next turn I will have 42 bases and build another 6 pintas).

Its a better colonisation method than Magic9Mushroom's - however I have little or no minerals anywhere.
So like all 3i ARs if anybody wants to they can start killing my worlds.

You wont win with 3i AR - but if you insist on trying then this method stands the best chance of you gaining the space you need.
With a few miners lots of scouts and strategic gates you could intercept the first attack of your neighbours and if they are inexperienced they could be scared off by your advanced weapons.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 20 November 2008 06:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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An interesting note: I just testbedded a 3i AR without IFE, with ARM, ISB, NAS, and RS, and got rather crap results at 2420. Basically, the no IFE meant no Warp 9 until 2413, when I got the TGFS, which meant slowed colonising. I could probably have gotten around 2400-2500 res at 2420 if I hadn't made a mistake with some queues.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Sun, 30 November 2008 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1183
Registered: May 2008
Here's the basic problem with 3i AR in terms of points:

AR
IFE, ARM, ISB, NAS, RS
3i, 6%
1/8
3.5 cheap

has a point total of -17.

Solutions have been: drop ISB, drop IFE (I testbedded this recently, it's vomit), drop ARM (I wouldn't advise it), take NRSE (kills your mid-late game) or take only 3 cheap (not good for your Prop problem).

I've got another one to toss up: What if you drop the coefficient to 1/9? You lose 6% of your resources, but can take perfect LRTs and tech.

Just a thought.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 15 May 2013 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 910
Registered: August 2012
Thread resurrection time...
Why would NRSE hurt? You have docks everywhere...

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 15 May 2013 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
XAPBob wrote on Wed, 15 May 2013 12:42
Thread resurrection time...
Why would NRSE hurt? You have docks everywhere...


His note says it would kill you in mid-late game. So, not when docks matter.

I'm guessing he's referring to the higher resource and mineral cost of conventional engines.

NRSE gets you the IS10 at prop11. That engine costs 18/25/10/60 and weighs 25kt.

Without NRSE, you don't get the IS10, but you get the TGMS at prop16. That engine costs 5/2/13/20 and weighs 11kt.

With IFE and without NRSE you also get the Galaxy Scoop at prop20. That engine costs 4/2/9/12 and weighs 8kt. And goes warp 9 on no fuel, warp 10 on 60% fuel.

The TS10 is available to all at prop23. That engine costs 3/0/3/10 and weighs 5kt. It uses 50% fuel at w10, but more fuel than the GScoop at other speeds.

So an IFE with NRSE is stuck with the IS10 from prop11 to prop23. It's a heavy, expensive engine compared to mid-late game engines available to those without NRSE.



[Updated on: Wed, 15 May 2013 15:57]




What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Wed, 15 May 2013 20:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1183
Registered: May 2008
XAPBob wrote on Thu, 16 May 2013 03:42
Thread resurrection time...
Why would NRSE hurt? You have docks everywhere...


In the midgame, you have no resources and next-to-no Iron (you can't build Robo-Maxi-Miners at Docks). Good luck with building res-hungry, Iron-hungry IS-10 ships.

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Re: Tri Imune AR? Thu, 16 May 2013 04:50 Go to previous message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 910
Registered: August 2012
OK - that explains it Smile
Knew I would be missing something...

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