Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » Known Cheats (and the standard disclaimer...)
| Re: Known Cheats |
Fri, 30 May 2014 18:46   |
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Coming back to the 0.2% Minimum Damage and quoting what Loucipher/m9m and others have pointed out earlier in this thread..
Quote:
0.2% Minimum Damage
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.computer.s tars/3G9VN_3jEz0
Jeff McBride -Oct 4 2000, 2:00 am on r.g.c.s.:
This is *not* a bug and will not change for 2.7k. It is part of the architecture of the original Stars! battle engine. If you don't want 500 alpha torpedoes to be able to destroy 30,000 Nubians, don't put your 30,000 Nubians all in one fleet.
I guess it's because it complicates checking by the host/ complicates attack plans / offers a Hail-Mary to players about to lose and can potentially kill a much superior fleet with a cheap disposable fleet... / increases MM..
Anyways, If we allow chaff then why not this?
Doesn't chaff remove the massive damage threat by missiles and acts as a game changer?
each player is guaranteed (256 / players present) number of tokens.
As long as the battle board overload isn't broken, I've changed my vote to allow the .2% min damage.
[Updated on: Fri, 30 May 2014 19:07]
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Known Cheats |
Mon, 16 June 2014 16:21 |
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skoormit wrote on Tue, 03 June 2014 23:37It is. But in my experience the mini mine layer is used exclusively.
You seem to have little experience with SD races. Of all the games where I played against SD, SMLs were used just as often as MMLs.
skoormit wrote on Tue, 03 June 2014 23:37Of course, my propose rule would encourage the lower number player to use the super hull...
As soon as it can be deployed. Con 15 is a higher requirement than the one for BBs, mind you.
Having read all this, I still stand by my interpretation of the rule: ban minelayers from entering enemy standard minefields. This will prevent the bug from happening, no matter what minelayer hull is used or whether or not the field detonates. Besides, clearing the enemy minefields before you move in with your own minelayers seems obviously sensible - who would deploy own mines in an area already thick with enemy mines? At the same time, it will provide both SD players with freedom to detonate their minefields if there's other ship type entering the field, without fear of triggering the bug - no other hull has the immunity. The rule is relatively simple for the players to observe (just remember that enemy standard fields are no-go) and for the hosts to police (they can track down and order to scrap any minelayer fleet that doesn't leave enemy standard minefield). Why complicate things when there's a simple and fool-proof solution?
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| Re: Known Cheats |
Wed, 18 June 2014 16:46 |
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skoormit wrote on Tue, 17 June 2014 05:58Loucipher wrote on Mon, 16 June 2014 15:21skoormit wrote on Tue, 03 June 2014 23:37It is. But in my experience the mini mine layer is used exclusively.
You seem to have little experience with SD races. Of all the games where I played against SD, SMLs were used just as often as MMLs.
I have some experience, but I don't claim to have a lot.
Sorry if my remark sounded offensive - it was not my intention. 
I am not very experienced myself, I just wanted to remark that one's experience doesn't necessarily reflect reality.
skoormit wrote on Tue, 17 June 2014 05:58Quote:...ban minelayers from entering enemy standard minefields.
Madness. SD hulls lay on the year of arrival. If you can't enter my standard minefields, I'm going to severely curtail your ability to move your SD hulls anywhere, and there's nothing you can do to prevent it. And vice versa. Mutual paralysis of SD hulls doesn't sound like much fun.
I am not forcing players to predict where their opponent's minelayers might be next year. That would be obviously impossible. Therefore my rule should be understood as follows:
1. You may not deliberately send your minelayer hulls into known enemy SD standard minefields (i.e. the field is deployed and you have it on your scanners).
2. If your minelayer hull happens to end up in such a field inadvertently despite observing the above (say, it has entered a previously unscanned field, or a previously deployed known field grew larger and the hull now got caught in the field, or an enemy minelayer moved close to your hull and deployed a new field catching your hull inside), you have to direct your hull outside the field, so that it exits the field within 1 year if possible.
(NOTE: if your own minelayer deploys own minefield and catches the enemy layer inside, the same will apply to the other minelayer as well!)
3. Failure to observe any of the above may result in offending ship being scrapped, at the discretion of the game's referee (be it a non-playing host or a 3rd party referee).
Note that this rule does prevent the "immunity bug" from happening to either side. A minelayer hull entering a new field that is set to explode the same turn will be hit no matter what player number it is (even if it deploys own field, that field cannot detonate the same turn to get advantage of the immunity). If it stays in the field, it will be scrapped no matter what player number it is as well, as per #3 above.
This rule does limit the SD minelayers somewhat, but it does it in a way that is fair to all SD players in a game - all of them would be subject to the same limitation. The rule pertains only standard minefields, so it doesn't touch heavy or speedtrap minefields, which can't be detonated, hence don't trigger the bug. All players may enter them, sweep them or lay own fields inside them as they see fit.
NOTE: if a standard minelayer deploys own standard field so that it catches enemy heavy/speedtrap layer inside, the other layer would have to move away. An interesting ship-scaring tactic, but again - one that can be used by all SD players, regardless of the number.
If all the above seems too much complicated for you, here's a simpler and more straightforward suggestion - ban all SD players from detonating a particular standard minefield as long as there's at least one other SD player's minelayer hull inside that field. This will also prevent the bug from happening, but leaves enough space to abuse (a battle fleet laden with minibombers, SFXs and chaff, and accompanied with at least one minelayer hull can safely traverse enemy SD standard minefield without fear of being stripped of all these ships). The rule I suggested originally does not allow for this, as any standard minefield can be set to detonate at any time, at the discretion of the controlling player. It's the ships themselves that are limited in where they can go to deploy minefields, but this limitation is fair for everyone, and can be worked around with valid tactics (like increasin
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| Re: Known Cheats |
Wed, 18 June 2014 17:34 |
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 XAPBob |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012 | |
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Loucipher wrote on Wed, 18 June 2014 21:46
If all the above seems too much complicated for you, here's a simpler and more straightforward suggestion - ban all SD players from detonating a particular standard minefield as long as there's at least one other SD player's minelayer hull inside that field. This will also prevent the bug from happening, but leaves enough space to abuse (a battle fleet laden with minibombers, SFXs and chaff, and accompanied with at least one minelayer hull can safely traverse enemy SD standard minefield without fear of being stripped of all these ships). The rule I suggested originally does not allow for this, as any standard minefield can be set to detonate at any time, at the discretion of the controlling player. It's the ships themselves that are limited in where they can go to deploy minefields, but this limitation is fair for everyone, and can be worked around with valid tactics (like increasing the number of minelayers in any given group to make own fields bigger, and sweeping enemy fields to keep them smaller).
That's almost the same as the rule I proposed, except that it is inverted (the enemy fleet prevents you doing detonation).
I think that the tactic you mentioned it far too obvious, and of course you can't predict where that fleet will be at the end of the turn. Whereas you know where your fleet will be (and can arrange not to limit yourself
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| Re: Known Cheats |
Fri, 20 June 2014 20:03 |
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| skoormit |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama | |
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Loucipher wrote on Fri, 20 June 2014 16:38Now that I think of it, I must admit your rule seems to make sense.
It prevents you from detonating minefields where your minelayer is both in your and your opponent's minefield. That's fair - if you don't detonate your own minefield, you leave your minelayer vulnerable to the other guy's detonation. On the other hand, nothing keeps you from moving your own ship back a bit (so that you exit enemy's minefield while staying in yours, for instance), and detonating the field without fear of losing your ship and abusing the bug. The restriction is kept to a minimum, and the rule is short and easy to remember... and to enforce.
You seem to have found a simple and foolproof solution. 
All things considered, it is the best rule yet proposed.
The tactical implications are profound, but they apply to both players equally.
What is the penalty? Scrapping any SD hulls ending a turn in a position that violates the rule?
It is difficult to referee, because the detonations shrink the fields, and an observer must back-calculate the size of the field prior to detonation to determine if any ships were in them. The host can rely on the players to call fouls, but that's adding more MM to an already MM-heavy scenario for an already MM-heavy PRT.
My alternate rule, mostly tongue in cheek, remains "No more than one SD per game." 
What we need's a few good taters.Report message to a moderator
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