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Home » Primary Racial Traits » IT » Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) (Stars calculator gives incorrect results...?)
Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Thu, 04 April 2013 13:30 Go to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

I was overgating 40kt ships over 600 lys using inf/300 gates.
I ended up losing ships, despite the calculator saying it's perfectly safe..

Any idea what's going on?
Is the stars calculator incorrect here?



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Thu, 04 April 2013 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
Hmm...were the ships already very damaged? The calculator shows that they would take 25% damage from that trip.


What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Thu, 04 April 2013 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

nope, no damage to any of them. They were already fully healed ships.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 05 April 2013 09:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
The calculator shows 99% damage at 1499ly and 100% at 1500ly, which matches expectations.

Either this is a bug, or there's an error in what you've stated.

Only one gate on each base, I assume.

Wild guess: did you upgrade one or the other gate during the same year as moving? I've never noticed that being a problem, but perhaps this is an edge case. Even at that, with 100/250 gates you should only take 34% damage, with no losses.

You sure your ships aren't *400* kt? Rolling Eyes



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 05 April 2013 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

I created a testbed.

Made two IT colonies (1249 LYs apart from each other) and put solo inf/300 gate stations.

The Non IT race, built 10 39kt scouts.
They moved to 1st IT planet with 0% damage.
It then gated 1249 lys from one IT gate to the other IT gate.

The Stars Calc says that it will take 79% damage, with no losses.

However, in the game I lost 4 ships and ended with damage of 6 @ 78% ...




I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 05 April 2013 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
I've just done a testbed as well and I get the same thing.

500 scouts, 39kt, built by non-IT race, traveling 1250.67 ly from an inf/300 gate to an inf/300 gate. Both planets owned by IT race with the non-IT set to friend.

143 scouts died.
357 survived, with 75% damage.

Second trial, with 500 new scouts, making the same trip in the opposite direction:
136 scouts died.
364 survived, with @75% damage.


[Updated on: Fri, 05 April 2013 14:22]




What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 05 April 2013 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
I think it's a little different then you think. I think it's more like.

1. the IT gating advantage is a race trait, so other races using a IT gate do not get it.

2. In the Calculator it gives you 'amount of damage' and the 'chance of the fleet disappearing' from overgating.

3. If the fleet does not disappear then it get's damaged.

4. If the damage is enough then some ships in the fleet are destroyed.

5. It appears that overgating damage is random, in that sometimes you can overgate without damage and sometimes you can loose ships within a fleet and the remaining ships are undamaged.


[Updated on: Fri, 05 April 2013 19:40]

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 05 April 2013 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
leonidas

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 44
Registered: February 2013
skoormit wrote on Fri, 05 April 2013 13:51
I've just done a testbed as well and I get the same thing.

500 scouts, 39kt, built by non-IT race, traveling 1250.67 ly from an inf/300 gate to an inf/300 gate. Both planets owned by IT race with the non-IT set to friend.

143 scouts died.
357 survived, with 75% damage.

Second trial, with 500 new scouts, making the same trip in the opposite direction:
136 scouts died.
364 survived, with @75% damage.


Posey's calculator states 79% damage + 26% losses.

This matches the data well.

StarsCal 3.06 doesn't seem to give any chance of loss for non-IT races and predicts 79% damage.

Conclusion. StarsCal 3.06 doesn't work properly.

leonidas.

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Losses due to overgating Fri, 05 April 2013 21:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
nmid wrote on Fri, 05 April 2013 17:30
The Stars Calc says that it will take 79% damage, with no losses.

However, in the game I lost 4 ships and ended with damage of 6 @ 78% ...


Well, the damage is close enough that I'd call it correct, the 1% difference is probably due to the usual rounding errors.

Here some info from experience:
1) ITs never loose ships.
The only exception is due to accumulated damage of 100% or more.

2) Mass-overgating leads to losses.
The not exact formula was once posted in the Advanced Stars! FAQ.

3) Distance-overgating leads to losses as well.
There are several posts, including the FAQ, stating that only distance-overgating leads to losses but that's wrong... at least nowadays. It could be that it was changed in the later Stars versions or patches. Most of the articles and calculations about gates are rather old and thus might refer to older versions.

4) Damage calculations due to mass- or distance-overgating are the same for every PRT including ITs.


[Updated on: Fri, 05 April 2013 21:29]

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 05 April 2013 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
leonidas wrote on Fri, 05 April 2013 19:38


Posey's calculator states 79% damage + 26% losses.

This matches the data well.

StarsCal 3.06 doesn't seem to give any chance of loss for non-IT races and predicts 79% damage.

Conclusion. StarsCal 3.06 doesn't work properly.

leonidas.



Could it be that StarsCal doesnt perform a distance overgate loss check for the IT-only gates?



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Sat, 06 April 2013 04:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
leonidas

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 44
Registered: February 2013
skoormit wrote on Fri, 05 April 2013 22:41
Could it be that StarsCal doesnt perform a distance overgate loss check for the IT-only gates?


Checked that at same time (i.e. with both 300/500 gates etc) before coming to the conclusion it doesn't give %loss for non-IT

leonidas.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Mon, 08 April 2013 05:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5
Quote:
I think it's a little different then you think. I think it's more like.

1. the IT gating advantage is a race trait, so other races using a IT gate do not get it.

2. In the Calculator it gives you 'amount of damage' and the 'chance of the fleet disappearing' from overgating.

3. If the fleet does not disappear then it get's damaged.

4. If the damage is enough then some ships in the fleet are destroyed.

5. It appears that overgating damage is random, in that sometimes you can overgate without damage and sometimes you can loose ships within a fleet and the remaining ships are undamaged.


That.

Really. That.



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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Mon, 08 April 2013 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
Eagle of Fire wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013 04:57
Quote:
I think it's a little different then you think. I think it's more like.

1. the IT gating advantage is a race trait, so other races using a IT gate do not get it.

2. In the Calculator it gives you 'amount of damage' and the 'chance of the fleet disappearing' from overgating.

3. If the fleet does not disappear then it get's damaged.

4. If the damage is enough then some ships in the fleet are destroyed.

5. It appears that overgating damage is random, in that sometimes you can overgate without damage and sometimes you can loose ships within a fleet and the remaining ships are undamaged.


That.

Really. That.


I don't think this is accurate.

Twice, I gated 500 39kt scouts 1250.67ly as a non-IT race through IT gates (inf/300 on both ends). I gated them as 500 separate fleets. Each time, each ship had 75% damage. There was no random variation in amount of damage.



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Mon, 08 April 2013 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
leonidas wrote on Fri, 05 April 2013 19:38


Posey's calculator states 79% damage + 26% losses.

This matches the data well.



I just downloaded Posey's sheet (version 2.20) and put in the parameters.
Sending gate: 2
Receiving gate: 2
Max mass in fleet: 39
Distance: 1250

The calculator says 79% damage and 0% losses.

What am I missing?



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Mon, 08 April 2013 17:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
leonidas

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 44
Registered: February 2013
skoormit wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013 12:08
leonidas wrote on Fri, 05 April 2013 19:38


Posey's calculator states 79% damage + 26% losses.

This matches the data well.



I just downloaded Posey's sheet (version 2.20) and put in the parameters.
Sending gate: 2
Receiving gate: 2
Max mass in fleet: 39
Distance: 1250

The calculator says 79% damage and 0% losses.

What am I missing?


I have version 2.32d and it says 79% loss and in the box below 26% chance of loss.

leonidas.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Mon, 08 April 2013 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
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Location: Alabama
leonidas wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013 16:24
skoormit wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013 12:08
leonidas wrote on Fri, 05 April 2013 19:38


Posey's calculator states 79% damage + 26% losses.

This matches the data well.



I just downloaded Posey's sheet (version 2.20) and put in the parameters.
Sending gate: 2
Receiving gate: 2
Max mass in fleet: 39
Distance: 1250

The calculator says 79% damage and 0% losses.

What am I missing?


I have version 2.32d and it says 79% loss and in the box below 26% chance of loss.

leonidas.


Score one for version numbering.

Where can I download the newer version? I got mine from the downloads page on the wiki.

Or could you email it to me? My user name at gmail. Very Happy



What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Mon, 08 April 2013 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
leonidas

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 44
Registered: February 2013
skoormit wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013 18:00
Or could you email it to me? My user name at gmail. Very Happy


Done.

leonidas

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Mon, 08 April 2013 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

Can u please email me and gible (if u have his email id) the newer version too?
Thanks Smile



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Tue, 09 April 2013 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
leonidas

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 44
Registered: February 2013
nmid wrote on Mon, 08 April 2013 23:11
Can u please email me and gible (if u have his email id) the newer version too?
Thanks Smile


Have emailed you. I don't have gible's email address.

leonidas.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 12 April 2013 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5
Quote:
I don't think this is accurate.

Twice, I gated 500 39kt scouts 1250.67ly as a non-IT race through IT gates (inf/300 on both ends). I gated them as 500 separate fleets. Each time, each ship had 75% damage. There was no random variation in amount of damage.

There is not supposed to be a variation in the amount of damage. The only practical difference is that IT races never ever lose ships to the void while non-IT races have a chance to lose ships to the void.

Chances to lose ships to the void increase exponentially both for over distances and over weight and of course increase as you increase distance and weight over the "safe" limits. This mean that you have a way higher chance of losing ships if you go over both and minimize risk by going over only one of those two factors.

IT races only have to bother with damage. And there is always the possibility to use the repair after gating trick if you have an SFX or another fleet at destination.



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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 12 April 2013 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

Got confused by the quote Eagle used before I figured out that Eagle was talking about the quote before the quote...
the one that spoke that damage is variable.

Hmmm. I agree, damage is never variable in my experience, if the distances are known.
It was the ships lost to the void that was the surprise.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 10 May 2013 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012
Just to clarify that.

If an IT gets a 501kT ship and gates it through a 100/250 gate over 3-400 ly...

Is the damage limited to 99% or will it die?

I think it will at least fail to gate as it would be >5x the gate size.

A 499kT ship?


[Updated on: Fri, 10 May 2013 10:08]

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Fri, 10 May 2013 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
XAPBob wrote on Fri, 10 May 2013 09:04
Just to clarify that.

If an IT gets a 501kT ship and gates it through a 100/250 gate over 3-400 ly...

Is the damage limited to 99% or will it die?

I think it will at least fail to gate as it would be >5x the gate size.

A 499kT ship?


IT will lose ships that reach 100% damage.
A fresh 501kt ship through a 100/250 gate will take 100% damage and die.
A fresh 499kt ship through a 100/250 gate will take 99% damage but will not die.
A 499kt ship which already has 1% damage sent through a 100/250 gate will take 99% damage and die.
IT will *not* lose ships to "the void" like other races do when overgating. Non-IT races have a % chance of loss when overgating. That % chance does not apply to IT.


[Updated on: Fri, 10 May 2013 11:08]




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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Sat, 11 May 2013 02:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012
Thanks - thought that was the case, but there were "if anyone knows this percentage for IT" queries on a couple of articles which threw me.

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Re: Overgating using IT gates.. (non IT race) Tue, 14 May 2013 07:25 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Asmodai is currently offline Asmodai

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 214
Registered: February 2012
Quote:
A fresh 501kt ship through a 100/250 gate will take 100% damage and die.

You can gate only ships up to 500kt. Fresh 501kt ship WILL not be gated. Player trying to gate such ships will get message from system:

XXXXX# attempted to use the stargate at XXXXX to reach XXXXX but could not because ships of type XXXXX were too massive.

For my IT experience(and few tests) - anything between 496-500 will die - even if race that gating ships is IT.
Below 495kt and less - 98% damage, but save for IT. I rarely seened 99% on overgated ship - it is either 98%....or you dont see any overgated ships at all.

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