Home World Forum
Stars! AutoHost web forums

Jump to Stars! AutoHost


 
 
Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » New Game: No Monsters Allowed
icon4.gif  Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trader is currently offline trader

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 21
Registered: September 2012
Location: Toronto
Gentlemen, start your engines!

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012
The RNG is rubbish - I've had at least half a dozen gens with all the HW in half of the universe...


I'm glad it's scripted:
Gen from def
Dump .p and .map from player 1
Dump .p from the rest
Grab the HW's from the P files
Grab the X,Y coordinated from the map file
PLot using gnuplot to the command line...

Takes the machine 45 seconds (whirring in the background) to output a pic like this (Leo Minor was picked up as Leo was one of the HW, hence 9 planets shown):
XAPBob:~/stars/NMA$ time (./gen | grep -v "fixme:event:wait_for_withdrawn_state window")



  2200 ++------------+-------------+-------------+--------------+-------------+------------++
       +             +             +             +              +          'nma.hws'   A    +
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
  2000 ++                                                                                  ++
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
  1800 ++                                                                                  ++
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                        A                                                           |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                        A                                           |
  1600 ++      A                                                                           ++
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                               A                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
  1400 ++                                                                                  ++
       |                                               A                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |               A                                                                    |
       |               A                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
  1200 ++                                   A                                              ++
       |                                                                                    |
       |     A                                                                              |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       |                                                                                    |
       +             +             +             +              +             +             +
  1000 ++------------+-------------+-------------+--------------+-------------+------------++
      1000          1200          1400          1600           1800          2000          2200


real    0m45.254s
user    0m1.532s
sys     0m1.496s


[Updated on: Wed, 17 April 2013 11:03]

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
XAPBob wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 09:41
The RNG is rubbish - I've had at least half a dozen gens with all the HW in half of the universe...


I've noticed this as well. When testing the .def, I just opened each player file quickly in Stars (alt-f->8 over and over once I had all 8 files in the recent list).

Perhaps other people have studied the details of universe gen in stars, but my guess is that stars picks a purely random start position for player #1, and then makes random picks for the remaining players influenced by the player distance setting and the position of player 1.

The spacing usually looks reasonable, but yeah, it doesn't do a good job of centering everyone.

If this is proving too cumbersome, maybe we should consider moving the starting planets to form a rough octagon around the center.

Anyone have any other ideas?



What we need's a few good taters.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dlrichert is currently offline dlrichert

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 136
Registered: January 2012
Location: US
skoormit wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 11:37
XAPBob wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 09:41
The RNG is rubbish - I've had at least half a dozen gens with all the HW in half of the universe...



If this is proving too cumbersome, maybe we should consider moving the starting planets to form a rough octagon around the center.

Anyone have any other ideas?


If you can get all to agree change to "farther"

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trader is currently offline trader

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 21
Registered: September 2012
Location: Toronto
Even better would be to change to "distant". I think it is the current setting of that parameter which is causing the problem.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trader is currently offline trader

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 21
Registered: September 2012
Location: Toronto
By the way, if you want to take a sledgehammer to it, the Universe Creator utility can bend the galaxy to any shape you want and move HWs to the desired spacing, though I realize that would change the playing field considerably.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
I'm hesitant to change the player distance parameter without giving everyone time to adjust their race designs accordingly.

And this topic is perhaps a bit expansive for the purposes of this new game announcement thread, but I wonder if it wouldn't actually be fun and reasonably equitable to play in a universe similar to the one XAPBob posted, on the condition that everyone playing is aware of the tendency of the universe generator to create the universe in such a pattern.

In other words, consider the fellow in about the center of the map (we'll call him Bob). On turn 1, Bob sees that he is in the center of the map. If he is aware of the tendency of this pattern of player location, he suspects that he will find all the players more or less entirely between himself and one of the corners. After some years of scouting, he realizes that the crowded corner is the SW, and he has all of the NE corner of the map to himself.

At first blush, this seems a fortuitous position. He seems way better off than the poor guy down in the far SW corner (we'll call him Pete). Pete has very little room to himself. He'll have to contend with nearby races for planets, while Bob is up there picking the fattest greens from fully a quarter of the universe, unmolested.

But I wonder: if everyone in the game knows what is going on, is it possible that players would adjust their strategies accordingly, in such a fashion that Bob's apparent positional advantage is sufficiently mitigated? Even given the constraints of this particular game (no communication allowed), is it conceivable that Pete's neighbor (Jimmy) decides to let Pete have some breathing room, and instead expand to Jimmy's own north and east? And perhaps that the player to Jimmy's northeast (Raul) responds to Jimmy's expansion in that direction not as aggression, but as enlightened coexistence? Maybe Raul is savvy enough to decide not to fight Jimmy for the planets between them, but instead decides to move north and east himself, and put pressure on Bob. And perhaps Bob's other neighbors put pressure on Bob as well, lest he grow fat and powerful on all that unchallenged territory.

Meh, probably not.



What we need's a few good taters.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
trader wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 13:14
By the way, if you want to take a sledgehammer to it, the Universe Creator utility can bend the galaxy to any shape you want and move HWs to the desired spacing, though I realize that would change the playing field considerably.


I thought there were some limitations to moving planets: must keep the planets in the same order, left to right, or something like that.



What we need's a few good taters.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dlrichert is currently offline dlrichert

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 136
Registered: January 2012
Location: US
skoormit wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 14:17
I'm hesitant to change the player distance parameter without giving everyone time to adjust their race designs accordingly.

And this topic is perhaps a bit expansive for the purposes of this new game announcement thread, but I wonder if it wouldn't actually be fun and reasonably equitable to play in a universe similar to the one XAPBob posted, on the condition that everyone playing is aware of the tendency of the universe generator to create the universe in such a pattern.



If someone needs time to adjust race that is better than leaving players at a big disadvantage. The game could last more than 5 months. You risk getting an early dropout or player with lack of interest after a short time. Maybe you get lucky and all agree to universe change without race update. To go on record I am ok with a change to farther or distant with no race change.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
dlrichert wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 15:14


If someone needs time to adjust race that is better than leaving players at a big disadvantage. The game could last more than 5 months. You risk getting an early dropout or player with lack of interest after a short time. Maybe you get lucky and all agree to universe change without race update. To go on record I am ok with a change to farther or distant with no race change.


Couldn't agree more. Don't want to start with an obviously bad starting position. XAPBob is still game to investigate other options. When he has exhausted his patience for that, we'll try changing the starting distance parameter.



What we need's a few good taters.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 18:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
skoormit wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 20:17
if everyone in the game knows what is going on, is it possible that players would adjust their strategies accordingly, in such a fashion that Bob's apparent positional advantage is sufficiently mitigated?

Possible, perhaps, but not likely. That kind of positional advantage translates too easily into military advantage. Pirate

That's why most games are generated with "Distant" HW positions setting. Dueling



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
You can move planets up and down without any problems using Map2xy.

The next problem is placement of the IT and PP races in the order of races as they have 2 planets and that changes the universe setup.

If you use the same random seed and change the order of races, player 1 will normal have the same planet but the others are moved based on the order of IT & PP races.

Like
IT/SS/SS/IT/WM/SD/PP/IS
will give you a different setup then
SS/WM/IT/IT/SS/IS/PP/SD
using the same seed

once you get them spead out left to right, then you can move them up & down to get a good setup.

If you do move planets, gen one turn and start at 2401 to get the ships in the correct postion.



[Updated on: Wed, 17 April 2013 18:07]

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Wed, 17 April 2013 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
XAPBob wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 16:41
The RNG is rubbish - I've had at least half a dozen gens with all the HW in half of the universe...

The RNG uses time as "randomizing" factor. That's why it's better to let some time pass between successive gen attempts. Sherlock

Also, HW Position settings other than "Distant" tend to cluster the HWs, by *design*. Whip



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Thu, 18 April 2013 04:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tomasoid is currently offline Tomasoid

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 182
Registered: December 2005
Location: Ukraine

skoormit wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 21:17
I'm hesitant to change the player distance parameter without giving everyone time to adjust their race designs accordingly.


Doohh... I usually design my race based on the universe size, not the distance. Consider number of stars per one race. Unless game forces early fighting, but is it forced here that much? Wink

I vote for changing distance for map regen.



WBR, Vlad

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Thu, 18 April 2013 05:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012
OK - have genned 100 universes this morning (fully automated I have to say) - I'll look at their HW maps over lunch.

THEN I'll change the distance and do another 100


[Updated on: Thu, 18 April 2013 05:44]

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Thu, 18 April 2013 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012
Number 86 looks mostly OK...

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Thu, 18 April 2013 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

Would be fun to see the other 99 maps Smile


I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Thu, 18 April 2013 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
Tomasoid wrote on Thu, 18 April 2013 03:50
skoormit wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 21:17
I'm hesitant to change the player distance parameter without giving everyone time to adjust their race designs accordingly.


Doohh... I usually design my race based on the universe size, not the distance. Consider number of stars per one race. Unless game forces early fighting, but is it forced here that much? Wink

I vote for changing distance for map regen.


No, early game fighting isn't forced with the "moderate" player distance setting, it is just somewhat more of a possibility than with the "distant" setting.

If XAPBob finds a reasonable universe using the moderate setting and some minor remapping of HW, we'll play that. If that approach proves unfruiftul, I'll allow race resubmission and then we'll use the "distant" setting.



What we need's a few good taters.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Mon, 22 April 2013 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tomasoid is currently offline Tomasoid

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 182
Registered: December 2005
Location: Ukraine

Hi!

Any update on this game starting?



WBR, Vlad

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Mon, 22 April 2013 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skoormit is currently offline skoormit

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama
Tomasoid wrote on Mon, 22 April 2013 07:10
Hi!

Any update on this game starting?


I haven't heard anything from XAPBob. I'll ping him and see what's news.



What we need's a few good taters.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Mon, 22 April 2013 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012
Waiting for one email address for the submission file to Ron...

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Mon, 22 April 2013 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

Just put your own email id.
The host could change the email id later from the host utility..
You can forward the SAH password + turn to the player, when you get it.

That way Ron get's time to put up the game, and you don't wait on the player... that's if he's still around and wants to play ! Very Happy



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Mon, 22 April 2013 17:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dlrichert is currently offline dlrichert

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 136
Registered: January 2012
Location: US
XAPBob wrote on Mon, 22 April 2013 15:59
Waiting for one email address for the submission file to Ron...


Perhaps they have not logged in to check PM. I did not see PM requesting email until a couple days later.

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Mon, 22 April 2013 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
delete

[Updated on: Mon, 22 April 2013 19:35]

Report message to a moderator

Re: New Game: No Monsters Allowed Tue, 23 April 2013 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
gjarvie is currently offline gjarvie

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 16
Registered: April 2012
Sorry to sound like a broken record but it's not my email you're waiting on is it? I have sent it but
my private messages are still acting weird.

Also could someone send me a PM to see if I get it please?

Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic: Basic04
Next Topic: New game > Milky Way
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri Mar 29 07:23:53 EDT 2024