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How to kill an IT Fri, 16 September 2011 18:31 Go to next message
realitybend is currently offline realitybend

 
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Any general advice on how to win against an IT in a Tiny duel if I'm a JOAT?

I know that's a very vague question... but help a newbie out!

I'm playing this duel with slimdrag00n now, turn 11.


[Updated on: Fri, 16 September 2011 18:38]




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Re: How to kill an IT Fri, 16 September 2011 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
Ensign

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realitybend wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 15:31

Any general advice on how to win against an IT in a Tiny duel if I'm a JOAT?

I know that's a very vague question... but help a newbie out!

I'm playing this duel with slimdrag00n now, turn 11.

In a tiny galaxy, an IT's special abilities (second starting planet, ability to gate over vast distances, etc) just don't come into play. So I think this question is how to win, period.

Without knowing what you know, it's hard to say. As a beginner not too long ago, first I learned all about game mechanics, then how to maximize my economy, then specific tactics, and then I was able to form a whole game strategy that took into account all of what was learned.

Can you get to 25k resources by 2450 in a standard testbed? If so, I reckon you've got the first two understood fairly well. If not, search the forum for how to get to 25k by 2450. The Stars Official Strategy Guide is a good read, too.

If you have a specific situation you'd like our thoughts on, by all means post it. I'm sure Slimdrag00n won't mind. Smile

Cheers,
Void

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Re: How to kill an IT Sat, 17 September 2011 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Void wrote on Sat, 17 September 2011 09:17

realitybend wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 15:31

Any general advice on how to win against an IT in a Tiny duel if I'm a JOAT?

I know that's a very vague question... but help a newbie out!

I'm playing this duel with slimdrag00n now, turn 11.

In a tiny galaxy, an IT's special abilities (second starting planet, ability to gate over vast distances, etc) just don't come into play. So I think this question is how to win, period.

Without knowing what you know, it's hard to say. As a beginner not too long ago, first I learned all about game mechanics, then how to maximize my economy, then specific tactics, and then I was able to form a whole game strategy that took into account all of what was learned.

Can you get to 25k resources by 2450 in a standard testbed? If so, I reckon you've got the first two understood fairly well. If not, search the forum for how to get to 25k by 2450. The Stars Official Strategy Guide is a good read, too.

If you have a specific situation you'd like our thoughts on, by all means post it. I'm sure Slimdrag00n won't mind. Smile

Cheers,
Void


An IT's abilities most certainly do come into play. Did you miss that the last duelling final was between two ITs?

Gating pop is still awesome in a tiny.

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Re: How to kill an IT Sat, 17 September 2011 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 17 September 2011 03:08

An IT's abilities most certainly do come into play. Did you miss that the last duelling final was between two ITs?

Gating pop is still awesome in a tiny.

Context, my friend.

Unless I'm seriously mistaken I don't believe this new player is struggling just because Slimdrag00n is gating pop across a tiny universe. But I leave open the possibility of being surprised.

As for duels, you can ask all of my 2011 dueling opponents if I've missed any of the special abilities of IT, even in a small universe...

Cheers,
Void

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Re: How to kill an IT Sat, 17 September 2011 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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IT is actually at a steep disadvantage against an JoAT in a duel.

If you have trouble against him them, as already mentioned in this thread, your race build must be wrong somehow. The only advantage an IT have in a tiny against a JoAT is the gating of pop, which is very minimal all game long and almost non existant early game. Since the JoAT can have more pop than the IT in all examples it is only a matter of winning on production. And the IT gating ability can do nothing against that.



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Re: How to kill an IT Sat, 17 September 2011 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 18 September 2011 02:48

IT is actually at a steep disadvantage against an JoAT in a duel.

If you have trouble against him them, as already mentioned in this thread, your race build must be wrong somehow. The only advantage an IT have in a tiny against a JoAT is the gating of pop, which is very minimal all game long and almost non existant early game. Since the JoAT can have more pop than the IT in all examples it is only a matter of winning on production. And the IT gating ability can do nothing against that.


Of course, but in the current duelling rules JoaT is handicapped even more than CA (180 pts left over, no NAS).

I'm sure you'd agree that an unhandicapped IT has the econ advantage over a JoaT with an effective 270 pt penalty.

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Re: How to kill an IT Sat, 17 September 2011 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
realitybend is currently offline realitybend

 
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Wow - thanks for all the responses.

It's going to look really bad when I loose - since I have none of the restrictions you're talking about imposed on me. Embarassed

Anyway, I thought I'd try to get as much advice now as I could, since if I ask any questions when they come up I'd be giving away too much info.

The general consensus I'm hearing is just to use raw pop numbers. Are there any major tech (or other) breakpoints that I should know about, or a point in the game where all-out war will likely make sense to one of us?



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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 18 September 2011 01:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Well, gating pop is more of an advantage in the early-game than mid-game, while the extra 20% gives a capacity advantage, so he's probably going to want to take you out early.

Other than that, there's not really that many PRT-specific things (IT has the any/300 at prop6/con10, but that's really about it). It really depends on your race designs more than anything else.

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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 18 September 2011 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Quote:

Of course, but in the current duelling rules JoaT is handicapped even more than CA (180 pts left over, no NAS).

I'm sure you'd agree that an unhandicapped IT has the econ advantage over a JoaT with an effective 270 pt penalty.

Who ever said that there was penalties? I'm talking in the sense of a broad duel without any rules like we have in the dueling club.

Those penalties sure do change things around somewhat though.

Quote:

Well, gating pop is more of an advantage in the early-game than mid-game

I disagree here. The time required to build your economy high enough so you can actually send enough colons to build a gate in one turn take a long time for IT. Until that point the advantage of moving pop around is quite minimal since we are playing here in a tiny. You need to cover a lot of ground with an IT for his pop gating advantage to take effect fully, and for that you need time. Which mean that in a normal game you usually get this after that, which mean it is not really noticable.

A more noticeable advantage is to be able to build less cargos to move things around since you can also gate minerals. You transport minerals in a single year then come back to your destination, saving a lot on travel time thus needing less ships. However, early game your cargos will spend most of their time moving pop around to colonize new planets... Which again beg to be able to colonize with enough colons to build a gate in one turn so your cargos don't sit around idle without fuel to come back. Building a gate is almost always faster to crawl back to your HW anyways...

Another small advantage is to be able to readily gate pop to surprise popdrop. That ought to be an exercice in futility against a PRT which already out pop you though, since you'll already need all the pop you can get to compete. This leave only attacks (drops) of opportunity, something the gate have no control over whatsoever.

The real advantage of IT is the unrestricted overgating. You can overgate both distance and weight with the only
...




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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 18 September 2011 11:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 18 September 2011 08:30

I have the feeling the reason why realitybend have so much trouble against that IT is because he's playing an experienced opponent while he's new to the game and ended up with few planets to colonize. If the IT control two times the amount of planets he does then of course he's going to lose, irrelevant to PRT.

Exactly. But this thread has certainly spawned an interesting discussion of IT, don't you think? Smile

Cheers,
Void

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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 18 September 2011 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 18 September 2011 08:30


Quote:

Well, gating pop is more of an advantage in the early-game than mid-game

I disagree here. The time required to build your economy high enough so you can actually send enough colons to build a gate in one turn take a long time for IT. Until that point the advantage of moving pop around is quite minimal since we are playing here in a tiny. You need to cover a lot of ground with an IT for his pop gating advantage to take effect fully, and for that you need time. Which mean that in a normal game you usually get this after that, which mean it is not really noticable.

If you're speaking solely about a tiny, I see your point. Still, I think the premise that the IT has to be able to build a gate in one turn is faulty. Building the gate in two or even three turns doesn't negate the advantage; it merely delays it by a year or two.

Cheers,
Void

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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 18 September 2011 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Yes, I am following the topic of this thread and I am speaking stricly of a tiny. In anything else short of a tiny the IT starts with two planets instead of one. Only because of this I think the IT immediately get more interesting because he cover more ground at the game start.

In a normal game you have diplomacy, and I think given players with equal skill and knowledge building different races (without rules or restrictions), the IT simply cannot survive alone without diplomacy. Another factor which simply cannot be in effect in a duel.

The whole point of being able to build a gate in one turn is speed though. You want to expand as fast as possible in a duel... Because of this, being able to shorten by only one year your expansion is a prime. If you can build a gate in one year then you spend the bare minimum of time orbiting the target planet: year one you colonize and build the gate, year two you gate the cargos you sent to colonize back to replace those coming in for the next planet.

If you wait two or even three years then you would need to be able to expand in a circle like in a normal game. In a tiny you always end up on or near an or sometimes even several map border(s).



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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 18 September 2011 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 18 September 2011 09:09

The whole point of being able to build a gate in one turn is speed though. You want to expand as fast as possible in a duel... Because of this, being able to shorten by only one year your expansion is a prime. If you can build a gate in one year then you spend the bare minimum of time orbiting the target planet: year one you colonize and build the gate, year two you gate the cargos you sent to colonize back to replace those coming in for the next planet.

Completely agree - building the gate in a single turn comes with all of those benefits, and more.

I don't always choose that approach, though, as I may prefer to use my 50k+ colonists that my HW is producing each year to go after a new planet each year. Building a gated fort in a single turn takes three years of pop; a gated dock four years. The advantage is I get more planets. The disadvantage is that it takes longer to get a gate, use the planet as a hub for expansion, and it's more susceptible to attack.

As to which approach is best? I'd say it depends. Smile It depends on the game and what I'm trying to accomplish.

Cheers,
Void

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Re: How to kill an IT Mon, 19 September 2011 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slimdrag00n is currently offline slimdrag00n

 
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There are a few instances I will move enough pop to a planet to have a gate up in one year. Mostly the decision for that would be is if I am moving into enemy territory.

The standard thing for me to do is use about 105,000 I use about 5 Privs with FM and 3 fuel pods so then there is room to bring minerals for the gate to have up in two years.

Tiny Universe really has no space to expand for a Joat, and obviously as tiny universe I don't get the 2nd planet which is discouraging for me. My first move is to get a planet towards the middle of the map.

The only Breeder on this map that I see is your HW sense our hab is so similar. I have two extra planets so far. One on the left and one on the right. The only way to win is to now get those few other greens before me and then hold onto them. Soon I may gate pop in and grab greens in your space if you make it easy.

I don't know what research a Joat needs maybe someone can elaborate for him? As an IT I leave my research at 0% until I am ready to get the tech I require in one year and then I go back to 0% so that my economy is growing at max every year.

My colonizers and Privs always travel with pop at warp 9. As joat you have to figure out what designs, and tech you need for that.

I believe my scanners picked up last year your HW had about 600,000 pop on it. I think to much is still sitting there.



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Re: How to kill an IT Tue, 20 September 2011 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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Hi ,

I am not so a good player but maybe I could help you a little bit.
all talk about the IT and what is good but I think this helps you not real to kill your enemy.
I dont know you race desine.Also I dont know you play style.
So it is hard to tell you how to win.

Advantages of the IT in Tiny:

- good deff because he could gate in heavy ships
- Minerals are moved easy ( BIGGEST advantage of the IT in all
games)
Nice to know for you but there is nothing you could do against exept kill the SB in Orbit.

So now to the more important point the advantage of your Joat:

- You have the most favorable pen scanner us them scouts mizer fullpod no scanner are extreamly good for scanning in the early and even in the late game

- Your have a real good grow rate because you have more max Pop on a planet us this for you by faster grow then the IT even by moving pop in the gates he will have some trouble to get your Popgrow

- You have real good starting tech us it some DD wit MJ and beamer are the hell for the enemy and holds him from kolonizing to easy

- With the Pen Scanner you get so much infos that you should easy prevent the scouting of your territory try to intersept all enemy scouts so you hold Informations he knows nothing
INFORMATION IS POWER in STARS!

There are also several Strategies you could us to win against a IT bu for this I have to know more about your race.And it is not good to write it where your enemy could read it. Also I have to know the game year maybe you are already dead and dont know it:P

For more informations you could E-Mail me fint my E-Mail in my Profile.


ccmaster
( with 5 min. Time Razz )

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Re: How to kill an IT Wed, 21 September 2011 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
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Some off topic moved to the Bar.

ccmaster

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Re: How to kill an IT Fri, 14 October 2011 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Braindead is currently offline Braindead

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sat, 17 September 2011 09:48

IT is actually at a steep disadvantage against an JoAT in a duel.


Only if the person playing JoAT is a much better player.

There is nothing that makes JoAT much better than IT. If anything, it puts JoAt at a disadvantage. ccmaster listed a few advantages that JoAT has over IT, but there are really only two:

* Information
* A bit quicker at the start

You can also add the fact that JoaT's mass drivers are better, but this is just too marginal. Some people mention resources and growth rate because you can have 20% more colonists on each planet. This rarely happens. When I play IT, all of my planets are at 100% capacity. If I'm lazy, then it's 9 out of 10. When I play JoaT, I can't get even close to this. JoaT's growth rate is only better at the beginning. The more planets both players have, the smaller this advantage becomes for JoaT.

Now, information and quickness out of the gate is a lot and good players will capitalize on both of them. But this isn't enough to make JoaT much better against IT in a duel. Look at what IT has:

* Ability to easily move minerals. This means that IT can build ships at all of his planets utilizing every single resource when needed.
* Ability to easily move people. Couple it with cheaper stargates and it becomes very important for fortifying new planets on the border.
* Ease of ship movements. Might not be as important in a tiny universe, but still very handy both, defensively and offensively.

The main difference between the two PRT's is that IT's advantages are static. They are always there and you can't take them away. The advantages that JoaT has are dynamics. If you know what you are doing, you'll be fine. If you don't, you're in trouble.

Now back to the original question. If you want to beat an IT as a JoaT, you need to use your advantage early on and build up a better economy. If it's mid-game and you are at the same level or even behind, then there isn't much you can do.

-braindead
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Re: How to kill an IT Sat, 15 October 2011 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Again, the topic started mentioned he wanted to win in a duel. In a tiny universe.

All this is true in a normal game. Not in a duel. Assuming both players get roughly the same amount of planets, which often happen in a duel, the JoaT will have a steep advantage. Gating won't help much if at all in a duel.



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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 16 October 2011 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Braindead is currently offline Braindead

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Fri, 14 October 2011 21:35

Assuming both players get roughly the same amount of planets, which often happen in a duel, the JoaT will have a steep advantage.

You keep repeating this without explaining why. Makes it a pretty pointless statement. What makes JoaT so much better? And how many times have you dueled a skilled IT player as a JoaT and vice versa?

-braindead




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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 16 October 2011 01:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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A -f IT or a -f JOAT?
Who'll be stronger?

I think I'll wait for the results of the championship finals to see how many even fielded -f JOAT/ JOATs as compared to -f ITs/ ITs.

Not a very exhaustive reply but it's pretty much what I wanted to say.



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Re: How to kill an IT Sun, 16 October 2011 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Quote:

You keep repeating this without explaining why.

Why would I need to explain why? It is a very simple and straightforward argument.

The JoaT get more resources for the exact same yield, thus research faster, thus make better ship, thus win easily in the end. How more should I explain it?

Of course you an argue all you want that a skilled player will win over a less skilled player. That doesn't make an argument either. All things being equal, the JoaT will always win in this scenario.



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Re: How to kill an IT Mon, 17 October 2011 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slimdrag00n is currently offline slimdrag00n

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 16 October 2011 15:14

Quote:

You keep repeating this without explaining why.

Why would I need to explain why? It is a very simple and straightforward argument.

The JoaT get more resources for the exact same yield, thus research faster, thus make better ship, thus win easily in the end. How more should I explain it?

Of course you an argue all you want that a skilled player will win over a less skilled player. That doesn't make an argument either. All things being equal, the JoaT will always win in this scenario.


I don't think you have to argue but I would definitely love the explanation of facts to your statements or else we have no idea why your saying things, and we cannot learn. Any tests done? Are you experienced with both races?
I do not play Joat so I do not know about them much.

My theory is...
Choosing IT costs you more points to play as them and then you are not getting your second planet to start with like a small Universe would. Not having that 2nd planet which could be a breeder slows an IT down.

I think maybe the 20% pop bonus for Joat cant really help much in a tiny.

In this dual against realityblend we have similar habs so I was able to snatch up a lot of the good greens before him because IT can snatch up a planet, get a gate, then ship colonisers and more pop for planets even further out much faster then a joat. If I get one extra planet then him its probably the same as his 20% pop bonus.

I think the key for a Joat to win is to just get lucky with a better Hab draw of breeder worlds around.


My only hope is that I can learn something from this duel as well as teach realityblend something. Haven't heard from him in maybe over two weeks. Hopefully all is well and we can eventually finish.
...




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Re: How to kill an IT Tue, 18 October 2011 10:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
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slimdrag00n wrote on Mon, 17 October 2011 14:57

I think maybe the 20% pop bonus for Joat cant really help much in a tiny.

I find the 20% bonus quite an advantage - both in terms of growth and maximum output. Starting at 3 is a bonus nobody else gets, unless they select all techs as expensive and pay the 60 RW points to start at 3 (actually, you don't need to select all techs expensive, just those that don't already start at three, like the Prop and Const for IT, but you take my point). With JOAT, you can pay those 60 RW points and start at 4 if you wanted, but aside from laying mines, I'm hard pressed to think what else you'd get at tech 4 that would be worthwhile. I digress.

The 20% bonus is a worthwhile advantage in my opinion. The tech and pen scans are a nice bonus, too.

Cheers,
Void

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Re: How to kill an IT Tue, 18 October 2011 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Braindead is currently offline Braindead

 
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Void wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 07:13


The 20% bonus is a worthwhile advantage in my opinion. The tech and pen scans are a nice bonus, too.


These are all theoretical arguments, which all go away with a few clicks of the race wizard (OBRM, starting pop, shape of the hab ranges, total terraforming, etc.). You are comparing a hypothetical JoaT to a hypothetical IT.

Let's look at what happens in a real game (I assume a tiny universe).

Early stages
JoaT advantages:
* strong: faster at finding habitable planets because of built-in pen scanners
* medium: once the hw reaches 25% (or 33% wherever you chose to keep it for growth), a JoaT will have higher growth per turn on HW.
* strong: information because of better scanning

IT advantages:
* small-to-strong: starts with C5 vs C3, which gives IT an ability to chose between Freighters and Privateers for colonists movement. If JoaT doesn't start at 4, then depending on mineral concentration and factory settings, this can be either irrelevant or very big.
* medium: starts with gates. This one is not so much about the ability to gate coloinsts and minerals. This is about the fact that IT can gate freighters back to HW after they reached their destination. This means IT needs to build fewer ships and can spend resources on economy or tech.
* strong: ability to gate colonists and minerals. Once the first wavey of new planets is colonized, it is much faster and easier for IT to expand and to build economy (for +f).
* strong: ability to hold border planets. Because IT can gate colonists, it is in a better position to hold/defend border worlds against early pop drops.

Mid-game
JoaT advantages (assuming JoaT has NAS):
* if IT has NAS, then JoaT's advantage is information. In a tiny universe this is only a medium advantage since IT can use suicidal scouts to collect this information. Plus IT can see planets which have gates.
* if IT doesn't have NAS, then there are two advantages. First, better range of regular scanners. And the second advantage depends
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Re: How to kill an IT Fri, 11 November 2011 03:07 Go to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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nmid wrote on Sun, 16 October 2011 16:12

A -f IT or a -f JOAT?
Who'll be stronger?

I think I'll wait for the results of the championship finals to see how many even fielded -f JOAT/ JOATs as compared to -f ITs/ ITs.

Not a very exhaustive reply but it's pretty much what I wanted to say.


Duel championship heavily penalises JoaTs compared to ITs.

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