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CE Thu, 08 January 2009 23:46 Go to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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I think it's a good idea because:

a) you start with prop 6, which gives easy radrams. Radram is an awesome early engine.
b) about 90 points.

Altruist didn't agree with me, so I'd like to hear the rest of your opinions.

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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 01:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

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[redacted]

but otherwise, no nup nada never like *%& hell. Twisted Evil


[Updated on: Fri, 09 January 2009 01:30]

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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 02:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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What? Your post doesn't make sense.

[Updated on: Fri, 09 January 2009 02:32]

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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 02:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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Messages: 661
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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 02:31

What? Your post doesn't make sense.


I think he's saying never!!!! Shocked

I agree.

Most people like to know than when the game is in the balance their ships will always get there. 90 points is not enough - maybe 390 but even then I'd have to think about it.

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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
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CE is definitely a good option to consider when you play a team game. If you are playing IT and your main strategy is simply to deliver gating services to your teammates, having your ships stall a few times in the game is not or should not be game critical.

It is also to note, as I personally experienced this not too long ago in a testbed against an AI, that CE is probably the only way to unexpectedly "dodge" incoming enemy fleets without cheating. If your engines stall you won't move, but your enemy fleet(s) will move to your expected full movement.

That's quite irritating when you are the player who wonder how come your captains can't manage to follow a low grade ship. Smile



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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
Cheap Engines
Most people hate them - I have hardly ever used them.
Advantages - some points AND engines cost 1/2 as much.
Disadvantage - every ship (or stack) has a 10% chance of not moving.

What does this mean? Well your initial expansion will be about 10% slower.
Each colony you colonise is likely to take 1 year more than you hope
(ie a 3 years at W9 will take you 4 years).

Transport of pop and minerals will also be slower than you wish
(OK here the IT doesnt have a problem - which is why CE is more forgiving for IT).

Fighting on the offensive - you can never be sure it will attack the turn you want!
And your advance is likely to be 10% slower - as now and again your big fleet will not move.

Possibly would suit a HP style IT - pop taking longer in transit would not be such a problem as they contribute much less.
Also as HP you would be slow and would end up defending
Cheaper engines = more ships and as they gate in they wont need the engines.
However HP have lots of points AND making a IT HP is just a shame.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 05:46

a) you start with prop 6, which gives easy radrams. Radram is an awesome early engine.


The RadRam is a warp-6 engine with exorbitant high fuel cost at above warp 6. Warp 6 is too slow and IMHO not awesome at all.

The interesting advantage of CE is the 50% cost reduction for engines and the points, of course. And this reduction comes best when you have taken NRSE and cannot build ramscoops but only the expensive standard engines, especially when you plan to use the AD8 in a horde strategy or to go asap to the IS10 and want to use it in most designs.

As Joseph pointed out, you are about 10% slower due to engine failures. This in itself I'd see more than outweight by the 50% cost reduction and for an IT the overall speed isn't really hurt taking into account all the gates... a slower colonization hurts, though. But the other problem of CE and why it is widely hated: you can't rely on ships to arrive. This is really bad. You might
* not succeed with intercepting intruders
* or fail to flee
* the minelayer-minelayerhunter war gets even more complicated
* joining reinforcements with your main attacking fleet while on the move becomes a lottery or very complicated
* all time sensitive actions or moves where fleets are supposed to meet are a headache

And if you are playing with an ally only too soon you'll feel the embarrassment of saying
* "Sorry, missed the rendevous" for the 10th time
* "Sorry for your bombers all shot down by the enemy... my BBs didn't move, CE".

And while it helps to bring down your engine failure quota, you'll hate yourself checking every damned distance wether it can be split in moves in which one might be at warp 6 or slower. There are really more exciting things to do in Stars!

So far I've used CE only once: in a game where gates, xports, fuel pods, fuel mizer and all scoops were forbidden and I knew that I'd always use the fastest expensive engine and the IS10 asap and in almost every design. Altho
...



[Updated on: Fri, 09 January 2009 13:26]

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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slimdrag00n is currently offline slimdrag00n

 
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So I guess to my understanding it is be bad to have a separate fleets going to the same location for a major battle because half your ships wont join the battle... Thus you would have to merge all ships with the same battle plans to make sure they all get there... that sounds really bad


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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Not only that, Slimdragon, but if you would set up several fleets to rendez-vous at an already existing and already moving fleet, if the target engines don't engage then the other ships won't merge with it: they'll all move one turn forward the target (if their engine engage), splitting your fleet in three.

A lot of "interesting" things can happen with a CE I guess. Laughing



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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

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With CE it is much easier to field high grade engines in primitive games with double research cost and/or bleeding edge. This goes for all races and not just IT.

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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johng316 is currently offline johng316

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 177
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Location: Indiana, USA
slimdrag00n wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 13:56

So I guess to my understanding it is be bad to have a separate fleets going to the same location for a major battle because half your ships wont join the battle... Thus you would have to merge all ships with the same battle plans to make sure they all get there... that sounds really bad


One way to get around this is to split all your fleets into single ships and merge them upon arrival. This way, 90% of your ships arrive.

Unfortunately, you give up the advantages of stacked shields, and if there is a battle on the other end you might overload the battle board.

But I could definitely see the advantages of CE, especially if you were in a team game and could cheaply produce horde ships that could then be transferred to your WM ally (who does not have CE). I don't believe the disadvantage of CE transfers with the ships to the new owner.... hehe.

John


[Updated on: Fri, 09 January 2009 16:30]




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Re: CE Fri, 09 January 2009 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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There is some nice ideas in this thread.

Anybody can confirm that the CE disavantage is nullified if you transfer a fleet to another player?



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Re: CE Sat, 10 January 2009 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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It's well known. Also, they scrap as full cost. Hence UR/CE scrapping.

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Re: CE Sat, 10 January 2009 03:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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A fix was already done for the CE/UR trick. Now ships given to you by another player (or MT) are always 30% cheaper in ressources when you scrap it.


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Re: CE Sat, 10 January 2009 05:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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My point is, the fact that UR/CE scrapping existed to start with proves that CE goes away upon transfer.

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Re: CE Sat, 10 January 2009 08:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 10 January 2009 05:27

My point is, the fact that UR/CE scrapping existed to start with proves that CE goes away upon transfer.


That's right.

Ships build by one race & transfered to another have the properties of the receiving race. eg.

1. ships built by a CE race & passed to a non CE race are not CE
2. ships built by a SS lose their 75% cloaking when transfered to a non SS
3. Scouts,DDs & FFs built by a JOAT lose inbuilt penscanning when passed to a non JOAT

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Re: CE Sun, 11 January 2009 01:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
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AlexTheGreat wrote on Sun, 11 January 2009 02:02

Ships build by one race & transfered to another have the properties of the receiving race. eg.

1. ships built by a CE race & passed to a non CE race are not CE
2. ships built by a SS lose their 75% cloaking when transfered to a non SS
3. Scouts,DDs & FFs built by a JOAT lose inbuilt penscanning when passed to a non JOAT


...ships built by a non CE race & passed to a CE race are CE?

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Re: CE Sun, 11 January 2009 03:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Yup.

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Re: CE Sun, 11 January 2009 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

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johng316 wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 22:29

slimdrag00n wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 13:56

So I guess to my understanding it is be bad to have a separate fleets going to the same location for a major battle because half your ships wont join the battle... Thus you would have to merge all ships with the same battle plans to make sure they all get there... that sounds really bad


One way to get around this is to split all your fleets into single ships and merge them upon arrival. This way, 90% of your ships arrive.

Unfortunately, you give up the advantages of stacked shields, and if there is a battle on the other end you might overload the battle board.


Splitting torpedo or missile ships and moving them to battle is a cheat! (if done in large numbers) Minimum damage done by a single torpedo hit 1/512th and thus 512 seperate hits with an Alpha torp will bring down the mightiest fleet in one volley. See the cheat list.

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Re: CE Sun, 11 January 2009 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
johng316 is currently offline johng316

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

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perrindom wrote on Sun, 11 January 2009 04:01

johng316 wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 22:29

slimdrag00n wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 13:56

So I guess to my understanding it is be bad to have a separate fleets going to the same location for a major battle because half your ships wont join the battle... Thus you would have to merge all ships with the same battle plans to make sure they all get there... that sounds really bad


One way to get around this is to split all your fleets into single ships and merge them upon arrival. This way, 90% of your ships arrive.

Unfortunately, you give up the advantages of stacked shields, and if there is a battle on the other end you might overload the battle board.


Splitting torpedo or missile ships and moving them to battle is a cheat! (if done in large numbers) Minimum damage done by a single torpedo hit 1/512th and thus 512 seperate hits with an Alpha torp will bring down the mightiest fleet in one volley. See the cheat list.


Yes, of course, and so is overloading the battle board as I already mentioned. You should not spit your fleets if either is a possibility if these are outlawed (and they usually are). Blaming CE would be an unacceptable excuse. I merely mentioned it as a potential work-around, but cheating is obviously not OK.



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Re: CE Sun, 11 January 2009 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1364
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perrindom wrote on Sun, 11 January 2009 20:01

johng316 wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 22:29

slimdrag00n wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 13:56

So I guess to my understanding it is be bad to have a separate fleets going to the same location for a major battle because half your ships wont join the battle... Thus you would have to merge all ships with the same battle plans to make sure they all get there... that sounds really bad


One way to get around this is to split all your fleets into single ships and merge them upon arrival. This way, 90% of your ships arrive.

Unfortunately, you give up the advantages of stacked shields, and if there is a battle on the other end you might overload the battle board.


Splitting torpedo or missile ships and moving them to battle is a cheat! (if done in large numbers) Minimum damage done by a single torpedo hit 1/512th and thus 512 seperate hits with an Alpha torp will bring down the mightiest fleet in one volley. See the cheat list.


I think you'd be forgiven if it was an accident.

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Re: CE Mon, 12 January 2009 02:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Messages: 809
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How could that ever be an accident?

"Oops, I clicked on 'split fleet' on accident right before sending my turn?"

Sounds very, very silly to me... Razz



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Re: CE Mon, 12 January 2009 02:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

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But if you didn't know there was going to be a battle, e.g. if you're doing this in open space and they have a cloaked fleet chasing you...

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CE, splitting fleets, costs Mon, 12 January 2009 05:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
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Splitting fleets is ok if it is done with low numbers of ships.

If it is done in such numbers that you might risk a battle overload, splitting fleets is definetly NO option. Neither do you want to dissovle a powerful stack of ships into helpless single ones, nor is it execusable to trigger a cheat/bug or possible restoration of the turn this way. Such a playing style asks for disqualification.

Nevertheless, this discussion shows quite clearly what kind of pain CE can become in times of war and battles. You can't really compensate for it but need to change your way of logistics and moving fleets around. As an example: If you want to make sure a WP1-pop-drop happens exactly in one year, better make sure to send 2 freighters. Don't split your fleet but keep them all together, may they be bombers, freighters or warships, chaffkillers or missile ships and try to live with the disadvantage of being able to use only 1 battle order. And never rely on time-sensitive reinforcements, may it be firepower or just fuel.

IMHO this not only nullifies the 50%-engine-cost-bonus but often enough, due to extra-ships needed, the overall costs are even higher than without CE.

CE is a very special LRT that needs a different playing style and scenario. You should like to play the "maana"-style: "If it doesn't arrive today, my fleet will arrive tomorrow, who cares."

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Re: CE Wed, 14 January 2009 06:43 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Kaloth is currently offline Kaloth

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 72
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CE is fine if you put it in the context of long term travel, using your gates to move large heavy ships across most of the space in 1 or 2 jumps and then at the end just as you reach the target you try to end up within w6 of the target, or engage your sense of optimism and take a bit of a gamble and push them at full speed.

Hell, 90% of the time it works fine and your engines cost a bunch less Wink

And with the extra points in the wizard you can buy something nice for your race, maybe put yourself in a position where it doesn't matter if you take an extra year or two to arrive, your opponent will still be out-gunned.

Having said that, it can definitely be frustrating and if you can avoid it in your design, leave it out.

But if you are really stuck for points and think you can either plan around it or gamble a lot, then it's not a complete race-breaker.

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