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AR overpop oddity Thu, 13 November 2008 01:29 Go to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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I was reading again about overpop losses, and started wondering if AR got any overpop benefits. They do, but as you would expect the great god of square roots ruins that for them. At triple normal population resource production "doubles" for an increase of 41.4%, at the mere cost of almost 750,000 population each year. Assuming a Death Star, that is, and why wouldn't you? Just under an even million if you want to end up at 9M pop left. However, mining and scanning also increased and apparently do not have an upper limit. I put 12M pop on a Death Star and while resources stopped at the 9M mark, the scanner range and mining continued to rise.

While I would never advocate overpop for resources with AR (or anyone else except for an IS or the kind of person who plays Sims just to torture the poor creatures), the increased scanner range is an interesting feature. If you happen to be shipping a lot of pop through a system, decide you need to see a system just outside the reach of your pen scanning and can afford the overpop losses - likely if you are shipping a lot of pop through a maxed-out system - you're all set. Or if, you know, you have just got to have an extra 40kT of Ironium that year and are willing to sacrifice a million people to get it. Twisted Evil

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Re: AR overpop oddity Thu, 13 November 2008 06:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Marduk wrote on Thu, 13 November 2008 07:29

Or if, you know, you have just got to have an extra 40kT of Ironium that year and are willing to sacrifice a million people to get it. Twisted Evil

In that case you better gate in some miners, they mine on arrival in the same year. Wink

Anyway, never tried overpopping an AR, interesting to know that scanning nor mining are capped ...

mch

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Re: AR overpop oddity Thu, 13 November 2008 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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Micha wrote on Thu, 13 November 2008 06:38

In that case you better gate in some miners, they mine on arrival in the same year. Wink

And put all that wear and tear on valuable equipment?! You speak craziness!

Quote:

Anyway, never tried overpopping an AR, interesting to know that scanning nor mining are capped ...

Yes, I thought for sure mining would be. Then again, mining isn't affected in normal overpop situations so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise.

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Re: AR overpop oddity Fri, 14 November 2008 04:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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So res are capped at 9M pop = 3x capacity?

And scanning isn't capped? This + high growth + 100x overpop = scan entire galaxy?

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Re: AR overpop oddity Fri, 14 November 2008 06:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 14 November 2008 04:08

So res are capped at 9M pop = 3x capacity?

And scanning isn't capped? This + high growth + 100x overpop = scan entire galaxy?


True, but you can't maintain it because of the enormous pop losses.

Examples:
15M gets you scanning of 1732ly (NAS) or 1224/612ly (nonNAS) & 387 mines but costs 1.5M lives.
33M gets you scanning of 2569ly (NAS) or 1816/908ly (nonNAS) & 547 mines but costs 3.75M lives.

For those who don't know, the reason NAS does not get you the normal 2x scanning is that the formula is SQRT(2*Pop/10) rather than 2*SQRT(Pop/10).

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Re: AR overpop oddity Fri, 14 November 2008 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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But you only need that massive scan for 1 turn every 5 or so. That's seriously better intelligence than an SS can get.

Also, by dropping the pop at waypoint 1 and picking up again at waypoint 0, can't you dodge the pop loss while getting the scan?


[Updated on: Fri, 14 November 2008 13:14]

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Re: AR overpop oddity Fri, 14 November 2008 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 14 November 2008 13:13

Also, by dropping the pop at waypoint 1 and picking up again at waypoint 0, can't you dodge the pop loss while getting the scan?

No, it turns out that you scan based on the pop you have in place at the end of the turn. Trying your trick I still suffered the overpop loss (as expected from the order of events) but got no scanning bonus from it.

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Re: AR overpop oddity Sat, 15 November 2008 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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But that's exactly it. Read my post again. Drop at waypoint 1 and pick up at waypoint 0 the next turn.

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Re: AR overpop oddity Sun, 16 November 2008 02:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 15 November 2008 21:14

But that's exactly it. Read my post again. Drop at waypoint 1 and pick up at waypoint 0 the next turn.


Well done Magic9.

Yes, you would avoid overcrowding losses by doing that. You don't get off Scot free though because you lose 3% of the pop in transit.

So to get a 15M pop scan you need to move & drop 12M to the fully populated object planet with a DS. 360K die off in the case of a one year move or 709,200 if 2 years (out & back). But that's a lot less than 1.5M.

I still don't think I'd do it 'cause that sort of pop loss is still a lot but I guess it's feasible.

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Re: AR overpop oddity Sun, 16 November 2008 04:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 15 November 2008 21:14

But that's exactly it. Read my post again. Drop at waypoint 1 and pick up at waypoint 0 the next turn.

"But 0 comes before 1!" Yes, I should have caught that. Wouldn't be the first time I've gotten into trouble when my brain decides to automatically put numbers in order. Of course I should have tried it out when testing the discovery, too, but I was just thinking in terms of extra scanning for a suspected emergency. Still too pricey for regular use, and if you can't get above double the normal pop limit you may be better off just taking the overpop losses (unless the pop is already traveling and arrives that year, for instance).

Hmm, what about reds, though? The overpop is ignored and losses based on the hab are likely to be much less. Certainly they will be if you go over double the normal limit. Get a -1% red and you can easily afford to keep it at a very high pop, assuming you can spare the pop to get it there in the first place. Okay, that is a good way to exploit this extra scanning! That should make up for mixing up my 0s and 1s (and me a computer programmer - for shame Embarassed ).

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Re: AR overpop oddity Sun, 16 November 2008 04:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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@Alex: 2200 per ship much? Razz and thanks for the compliment.

@Marduk: Does overpop on reds get ignored? Are you sure? I don't know the overpop formula.

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Re: AR overpop oddity Sun, 16 November 2008 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 16 November 2008 04:46

@Marduk: Does overpop on reds get ignored? Are you sure? I don't know the overpop formula.

Yes, reds instead use the standard death rate for poor habitat. So a -1% red will kill 0.1% of the population, of 5k from a pop of 5, for example. If you could somehow scrounge up 150M pop (which I suppose is doable in a reasonable timeframe with Death Stars and a high-hab, high-PGR AR), the death rate would be 150k per year - easily replaced.

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Re: AR overpop oddity Mon, 17 November 2008 00:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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You know that that's a penscan of 1900 ly and a normal scan of 3800 ly, right?

Holy ####.

Are you sure it doesn't hit the scanning rollover though? Remember the whole bug with NAS scanner nubians? That's only at 2k ly ranges, while this is at 4k ly ranges.

Well, I think that the new "best intel" race has just been discovered...

EDIT: Just testbedded. The penscan scans an entire huge universe with room to spare if you put 120,000,000 pop on the starbase. Only feasible on a red or yellow though, otherwise you lose 12% per turn to overpop = several million pop. Well, now we have another AR exploit to add to the mineral fountain.


[Updated on: Mon, 17 November 2008 00:49]

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Re: AR overpop oddity Mon, 17 November 2008 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 17 November 2008 00:02

Are you sure it doesn't hit the scanning rollover though? Remember the whole bug with NAS scanner nubians? That's only at 2k ly ranges, while this is at 4k ly ranges.

I'm not sure, the most I've put in an AR system was a bit over 20M, which had no trouble. If I had 150M pop, I'd definately be splitting them between several border reds for better overall coverage.
Quote:

Well, I think that the new "best intel" race has just been discovered...

Bear in mind that 1900 ly pen scanning will see a fully-cloaked fleet at a system at 38 ly out, 76 ly out in space; and this requires more pop than any AR is likely to get. It is a very useful trick, to be sure, but you would likely be using it via a few border reds with pops of no more than 10M. By the time you amass 150M spare population, you have probably got the game pretty much won - at least you have made it into the late game, when AR shines.

Then again, I know this will change the way I play AR a bit. I'll be making much more of an effort to stockpile population. Normally I don't bother after I've got a few full systems of pop waiting on freighters, say 10M or so. Keeping a base at 50% pop gives decent breeding rates while still giving 70% of the resources you'd get from a full base, which may be a worthwhile trade for the excess scanning.

Especially if you could sneak a colony mission into the heart of your enemy's empire, and manage to get a DS or US up the first year - a snapshot of all his high-production worlds might be worth losing a batch of your spares. That would require a lot of overcloaking to succeed, though, and if he had pen-scans of the system you'd probably lose the orbital before getting the scan data. Still, if he's the typical NAS-blind type...
...

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Re: AR overpop oddity Mon, 17 November 2008 00:51 Go to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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I edited while you were posting, btw.

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