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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Mon, 29 March 2004 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

Yep - I got it - thanks

I can see that the 19% made most of the difference along with the 5 higher greens within 200 ly of the HW.

In my tests I'm not getting that lucky with nearby planets.

I agree that it would be better to lose the LSP and the start at 3 (which is kind of a waste with this type of an HG race). In a real game though it would be a lot more difficult to hit the target - 500+ ly away is a long way to be colonizing in the average PBEM game - but, yes it's doable with the 1 in 4 (thanks).

This is one of the reasons I throw in a couple AI's into the benchmark equation - I prefer to simulate an environmet where there is something else to contend with. If the race won't hit 24 or 25k with a few AI's, it's not likely to hit it in any multiplayer game.

Ptolemy




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dark_Traveller is currently offline Dark_Traveller

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 33
Registered: October 2003
Location: Tigard, OR. USA
I seem to have the same issues with my WM designs. 17-18k by year 50. It appears terraforming is the major stumbling block to my races. I believe I have played with Ptolemy in the CFKIAB, were (I can blame only myself)the race design I took TT thinking Small Empire great potential for the planets and A Random Event to my HW(A Curse upon its Generation)Fundamental Change in Environment sent my HW to 80% early in the game, thus breaking my back. I have learned mountains of knowledge playing with you guys on AH but I see some of the Resources you pull by year 50 and I shake my head in wonder. Currently I am prepping for my next venture in scourging the empire and I would like to learn the secrets of stepping up to the 25K by year 50. I know some races it is a breeze on (relativity speaking) IT, CA, HE but I like the WM design I appear to be stuck on this plateau. Here is Design and any comments would be appreciated

IFE, NRS, ISB, LSP
Imm Grav, -24 to 192C, 0-32Mr 17%
1in1000 12/9/14 box checked 10/5/10
Weap/Cons(normal) all the rest Expen-No box

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 10:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
I haven't tried any of this, but some things look like problems with your race:

LSP is bad if you're going for fast resources.
17% is low, combined with LSP you'll have serious problems getting to 25k.
I'd shift the rad away from the edge some more, you'll never see a 0mR world for example.
Factories look good, mines should cost 3 and, as a rule of thumb, have as many of them as you have factories.
Take OBRM, you get lots of points, and 10% bigger worlds. And all you give up is remote mining, and without mine fields, you will have serious problems defending them.
Weapons and construction should be cheap.
You should either have NRSE or make prop at least normal. Getting to prop 16 with expensive is a major pain.

Now, you're asking how to pay for all of that?
OBRM will help.
You'll probably have to drop ISB.
Your temp hab looks wide, you might be able to narrow it some. With an imm, you won't have a big hab and afford everything else.



- LEit

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

First of all you want to drop LSP. To monster a race by 2450 you also want at least 18% pop growth (for the WM, 19% is better). Then, you need to reduce your mine cost and increase the amount of mines - so use OBRM and reduce your factories down to 12. You probably can't afford the less germ box checked.

Weaps normal no - weaps Cheap yes.

Con - if you can keep it normal - try try try do so. BTW Weaps Cheap (I mentioned that).

ISB is great if you can manage to afford it.

For a monster, IFE is pretty much a must - you need to move fast to keep colonies growing and build resources. To compensate for the IFE you will probably have to take the NRSE - maybe not, but probably. Oh, by the way - WEAPS CHEAP Smile (Got the hint?)


With a one immunity you can have your hab range at a reasonable 1 in 4 at the edge of 1 in 5. You can do this since green planets are going to be of higher value.

If you play the race in a small, normal universe all by lonesome and you hit 25k at 2450 then the race will do OK in a multiplayer game that is NOT in a small/normal. IF you throw in 2 or 3 standard AI's and still hit the 25k in the small/normal - you may actually be able to hit it in a multiplayer game that is not sparse.

In a dense or packed universe you shouldn't have too much trouble either way.

Ptolemy

(You don't EVER want to be in a game as my enemy if I'm IT Laughing - I can useually hit 32-35k by 2450 then).




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dark_Traveller is currently offline Dark_Traveller

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 33
Registered: October 2003
Location: Tigard, OR. USA
So higher growth, no LSP I can see this-quicker top off of worlds will create the resources from those worlds.
Now the mines is it just the number of mines should match the number of Factories or should you also create the same efficiency or does it really matter?
OBRM I have used but never in a live game, I have found in test games the expense in both resources and minerals is huge. The amount of Mini Miners you need to produce to equal even one Maxi Miner is staggering. A WM runs on its fleets and its ability to produce those fleets. Now an increase in Mines might counter this, I have to try this in a test game.
The Immune I took to counter some terraforming which I thought was slowing my growth. With an increase of growth rate, no LSP, and an increased Pop Cap with OBRM, maybe terraforming will not be so painful.
I like ISB too much to get rid of it so I will make adjustments to keep it.
What is done in the community to make Terraforming less painful(other than CA :-}), I tried TT but that was not the way to go, I set my defaults: up to 200 fac, up to 200 Mine, 10% Max Ter, and up to 100 Def. Now I do try to MM those Yellow worlds by forcing Terraforming into the top half of the production when they start producing over 100 resources a year. This appears to bump them to pretty quickly but not quick enough.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dark_Traveller is currently offline Dark_Traveller

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 33
Registered: October 2003
Location: Tigard, OR. USA
Ok Weapons Cheap. Oh did you say Weapons Cheap, Are you sure Weapons Cheap. Laughing
I seem to run constantly IFE and NRSE Prop 16 for the first Warp 10 engine is tough.
What do you think of OBRM a boon or something to stay away from for a WM.
And I pose the same question to as I did above: terraforming how do you make it less painful?

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 403
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Dark_Traveller wrote on Tue, 06 April 2004 12:09

Ok Weapons Cheap. Oh did you say Weapons Cheap, Are you sure Weapons Cheap. Laughing
I seem to run constantly IFE and NRSE Prop 16 for the first Warp 10 engine is tough.
What do you think of OBRM a boon or something to stay away from for a WM.
And I pose the same question to as I did above: terraforming how do you make it less painful?



Well, part of this is what your game strategy is...

Trying to build up for the long haul, or expecting to be agressive early using Battlecruisers or smaller hulls. Late-game is not nice to WM since Nubians can compete with Dreadnoughts better than Battleships can, and the lack of minefields makes offensive operations against WM much easier.

The reason OBRM is being suggested is three-fold:
1) Remote mining is a stratgic effort. You need specific research, then invest resources and minerals for a return on investment x years down the line. And said investment is vulnerable to raiders at any time.

2) OBRM gets you some race points and 10% larger planets. A planet has a higher potential resource value. And the points can help pay for those cheaper/more efficient/more plentiful planetary mines. Which you can operate 10% more of as well...

3) Better/cheaper planetary mines are a resource investment alone. Also, for initial resource improvement of a race towards the famed "25K by 2450" goal you need the Germanium to build factories. When the initial Germ stocks run out you will start building mines. More mines, more Germ sooner, more factories sooner, more resources sooner... nice fat feedback cycle.

The rule of thumb about mines operated = factories operated is that if 10000 colonists operate 15 factories than they should operate approximately 15 mines as well. Otherwise, there will probably be Germ shortages that will curtail growth and ability to export Germ to colonies to help their start up. (You do export Germ, don't you?)

Cost 3 mines are quite common. Not that expensive in Race Wizard points
...

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
If you want to monster something then try the standard monsters first.

Without immunity (more powerful long term):
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS
1 in 4 without immunities
growth 18%
12/9/16 box checked
10/3/18
1 cheap 1 normal rest expensive and box not checked

With immunity (quicker up):
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS
1 in 8 with gravity immunity.
growth 18%
12/9/15 box checked
10/3/16
1 cheap 1 normal rest expensive and box not checked

At 2450 these both give me about 35k in small normal galaxy or in tiny packed galaxy. The one with immunity has usually bit better tech thanks to cheaper planetary development.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
Dark_Traveller wrote on Tue, 06 April 2004 12:04


Now the mines is it just the number of mines should match the number of Factories or should you also create the same efficiency or does it really matter?

OBRM I have used but never in a live game, I have found in test games the expense in both resources and minerals is huge. The amount of Mini Miners you need to produce to equal even one Maxi Miner is staggering.


10/3/x is the standard mine settings. You should think very carefully before picking anything other then 10/3. There are cases where other things make sense.

As a WM, I wouldn't bother with remote mining at all.

One other reason to avoid remote mining is that if you allow allies to intersettle, that is fewer worlds you can remote mine.

WMs get their minerals from other people Twisted Evil



- LEit

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land
Heh Smirk

Know what? I don't think I can add anything intelligent to this thread. Looks like they have answered all your questions for you. And, yes, the terraforming is extremely painful, especially if you have ever testbedded or played a CA and seen how easy it is with those guys; but the terraforming has to be done. There is no strict law as to when it has to be done, however. One could leave the terraforming out of the default queue and add (read - micromanage) it in later after resources being generated on the world are up to - say- 200 resources - add 1 terraforming per year which leaves another 100 resources for continued growth/research as needed.

Depends on how much you like to manually manage things in the production queue.

Considering just how important MM can be in this game, some could argue that it is the key to winning, it can make sense to manage things that way.

And, just in case no one else has mentioned it, don't forget the importance of fuel boosters in the making of a monster race from any PRT. One of the big keys to monster making is moving pop around at warp 9 from the very beginning. Keeping those transports moving at their peak efficiency takes a lot of fuel, even when using IFE. Smile

The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dark_Traveller is currently offline Dark_Traveller

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 33
Registered: October 2003
Location: Tigard, OR. USA
Thanks one and all. I thought I was an average-medium player but the more I learn the more I realize I have a ways to grow. I hope to meet you all on the field someday. If there is anything else to add I am always around and I can guarantee I will have more questions. Since I make the 25k at 50 then I will want to know how to make it better. I started thinking 8k at 50 was great(don't Laugh). Now I am hitting 18k at 50 I know there is some magic(MM) to get me to the next level.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
Removing the pain of teraforming
Well you could suck up to the local CA but its much more fun to destroy them so...

Terraforming is always going to be a pain - all those resources not making factories. Immunity or TT is a way to make it cheaper.
Best way to improve is to MM your teraforming.
Low mineral world = Factories of inital germ (+ exports)some mines then set auto build to factories and Terraform.
High green - factories and mines till mines are about 400 then start dropping a terraform inbetween factories and mines.
When res hits 500 try dropping 5 terafroms at top of queue for a turn or to (can then use Germ mined to make ships)
Low green all factories and mines till full (or all fac and mines built) only terraform with surplus resources.
Big yellow (ie up to -3, -4) terraform as soon as you have 100 res. when it goes green change to that method.
Small yellow/red dont terraform untill you have built all factories and mines. only terraform with surplus resources.

Just how I do it - still other may have better ways I often use -f races and they terraform very differently!



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

Some last notes Dark Traveller,

-f races are more difficult to play since you have a much lower max resource count per planet. When you want just ONE MORE DREADNAUGHT at Planet X next year to tip a battle in your favor where you are defending - but it will take 2 years to build it, you won't want to be a -f race. You have to be planning very well in advance for your ship needs and that precludes you from being able to bring latest technology ships into battle sooner.

You will need to work on micro management of your mineral distributions - you MUST ship minerals in advance of where you need them. The simplest way is to always look at every planet - what it has and what it produces - and move minerals accordingly so that planets with lower production are supplied. My freighter count is always large. Use the 'planets report' function and then sort based on minerals to easily help you identify where you stand.

A monster race takes a lot of work, and one turn, once you are a monster, can take 2 hours or more to do well since you will double check that you haven't missed anything.

Your allies that are under attack will want your ships in position yesterday - you can't help that. But, you can plan well and get your ships concatonated into fleets where they will do the most damage to your enemies, forcing them to regroup and rethink their strategies.

Ptolemy

P.S. Never underestimate the powers of diplomacy, psychology and suggestion. You are playing against real people - not robots.



[Updated on: Tue, 06 April 2004 18:50]





Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Tue, 06 April 2004 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 403
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Dark_Traveller wrote on Tue, 06 April 2004 16:20

Thanks one and all. I thought I was an average-medium player but the more I learn the more I realize I have a ways to grow. I hope to meet you all on the field someday. If there is anything else to add I am always around and I can guarantee I will have more questions. Since I make the 25k at 50 then I will want to know how to make it better. I started thinking 8k at 50 was great(don't Laugh). Now I am hitting 18k at 50 I know there is some magic(MM) to get me to the next level.


First step is realizing that a higher level is there. Second step is realizing that you can reach it too. From there it's hard work, practice, asking questions and reading articles to learn from other's experiences.

I lucked out in hitting on the newsgroup and a couple of sites well before I got hooked on some bad habits. Then I developed them anyways... (helllllo Xdude monster games!) Silly hair

- Kurt

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Wed, 07 April 2004 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
overworked wrote on Tue, 06 April 2004 12:10


The rule of thumb about mines operated = factories operated is that if 10000 colonists operate 15 factories than they should operate approximately 15 mines as well. Otherwise, there will probably be Germ shortages that will curtail growth and ability to export Germ to colonies to help their start up. (You do export Germ, don't you?)

Cost 3 mines are quite common. Not that expensive in Race Wizard points in exchange for getting them built much more efficiently.



Germ shortage? in the short term perhaps. Except for the HW, more mines without better eff only lets you mine your minerals faster. Unless you are counting on the small amount of extra minerals you will be getting at the 1% conc level, the amount of minerals mined doesn't change. So, the "rule of thumb" should be modified by mines *and* eff, per x amount of factories...The longer I play, the more I lean to higher mine eff, less mines.

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Wed, 07 April 2004 01:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
In general a WM shouldn't be planning for post 2500, they need to dominate before then. Higher eff costs a LOT, more mines operated is cheap, and early on, either will get you more minerals out of the ground. So especially for a WM, operate more at 10 eff, and stomp your neighbors early for more minerals.




- LEit

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Wed, 07 April 2004 02:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1181
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
LEit wrote on Wed, 07 April 2004 07:58

... and stomp your neighbors early for more minerals.

I did a nasty thing once to a (low-level) player: I killed his planets and most ships, but left his remote mining site untouched. When he dropped, he didn't scrap his designs so his remotes kept mining _for me_: a LF of minerals each second turn. Those minerals weren't exactly a game-winner, but (having OBRM) that planet was unusable for me anyway.
BR, Iztok

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Wed, 07 April 2004 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

I did an even better one as an SS - I simply didn't bother to destroy the enemy HW which was a low green for me - after having obliterated all opposition ships, killed most of the other planets and picking up all the minerals - I just had my large freighters with Robber Barons making a circuit to that enemy HW and it's slave population picking up all minerals mined each year. It was an excellent mineral source.

That was a game I won outright and I could pretty much do as pleased in it. Doesn't happen too often these days...

Ptolemy




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Wed, 07 April 2004 07:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
mlaub wrote on Wed, 07 April 2004 07:41

Germ shortage? in the short term perhaps. Except for the HW, more mines without better eff only lets you mine your minerals faster. Unless you are counting on the small amount of extra minerals you will be getting at the 1% conc level, the amount of minerals mined doesn't change. So, the "rule of thumb" should be modified by mines *and* eff, per x amount of factories...The longer I play, the more I lean to higher mine eff, less mines.

Where you get that 1%?
If i look at the non AR games i played in then they were mostly over around 2480 and only some games lasted up to 2550. Conc were averagely around 15% at shorter games and 8%. 1% i see only at HW and few worlds that were initially dry and there the efficency does not help anyway. I take 10/3/16 as lowest usually 10/3/18 mines. Where you get that 1%?

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Wed, 08 June 2005 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SinicalIdealist is currently offline SinicalIdealist

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 184
Registered: October 2003
Location: North-left US

LEit wrote on Tue, 06 April 2004 22:58

In general a WM shouldn't be planning for post 2500, they need to dominate before then. Higher eff costs a LOT, more mines operated is cheap, and early on, either will get you more minerals out of the ground. So especially for a WM, operate more at 10 eff, and stomp your neighbors early for more minerals.



Honestly, I don't really plan for beyond 2475 w/ WM. Smile

Once nubians are prevalent, WM is doomed. You need to make your mark and gobble up half the galaxy by then or your game is over. No mine fields and 80% defenses don't lead to a strong end-game.

I always ALWAYS take ISB w/ WM. WM is all about short term power. IFE, NRSE, ISB, OBRM, NAS, RS.
1 in 4-5 and 19% non immune.
Also I try to center temp and grav as much as possible and set rad extreme.
WM loves a wide hab. Wide habs mean you overlap w/ more enemies. That means you have more planets to invade. Invasions are good.
Econ: usually 1/1000 12.9.14, 10.3.15-18
Tech - 2 cheap @3. w/ WM I often even go 1 cheap, but this gets dicey in the BB era when you want DNs.
W/ this type of WM, I stick to BCs predominantly w/ a gate-centric strategy, building most of my ships at SDs, avoiding any production more than 200kt, except for offensive missile boats for starbase suppression.

W/ similar designs I've hit 40k by 50 in a real game (medium dense, 15 players).




g.e.
====

"When the newspapers have been read, the TV sets shut off, the cars parked
in their various garages. Then, faintly, I hear voices from another star.
(I clocked it once, and the reception is best between 3:00 A.M. and 4:45
A.M.). Of course, I don't usually tell people this when they ask, "Say,
where do you get your ideas?" I just say I don't know. It's safer."
-P. K. Dick

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Re: Ideas on the best WM design. Sun, 12 June 2005 19:26 Go to previous message
Braindead is currently offline Braindead

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 186
Registered: April 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Quote:

No mine fields and 80% defenses don't lead to a strong end-game.

WM shouldn't worry about not having good defenses. If you're playing a WM and the fighting happens on your territory, something is very very wrong. Lack of minefields is a bit harder to get around. But if you only worry about an occasional cloacked fleet killing one of your planets, then there're ways of making sure your planets don't get bombed.



Mess with the best, die like the rest!

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