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2450 - 59k resources Sun, 13 July 2008 23:56 Go to next message
bigcanuknaz is currently offline bigcanuknaz

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 205
Registered: July 2004

Wow... I have got close to 50k resources with an IT, but I am amazed at the growth of resources for an AR. (This is the first time I seriously tested them, knowing that I had to clear the queue of the initial starter colony immediately after colonization.)

This is in a small packed testbed with 8 random expert AI's to make me simulate some ship building, and having to take away some planets fairly early for growth. And I played it with all expensive, but against humans I would have to take cheap weapons (or maybe cheap con and normal weapons and try and trade for the weapons, if I was feeling brave)

I would like to discuss the merits of Energy expensive, start at 3 checked for AR. (maybe all expensive except weapons) These extra resources can be plowed back into energy research to stay ahead for a few turns at least, and can be used at great advantage in any other cheap categories, or for ship building.

This is interesting, because it gave me an immediate over 50% boost in resources right from the 1st turn(N3 instead of N1). and I immediately had red lasers, and destroyers to make boosters. (I made scout boosters in this game, but will do destroyer boosters in my next improved try) And immediately prop 3 for the long hump (not great, but ok with boosters)(no IFE), and the medium frieghter. I had 3.55k resources by 2420, instead of just 2k. (over 10k at 2430) Yes, my research was a bit slower, but my resources and thus ship building, and thus spread speed was *much* faster. I built quite a few potato bugs, reasoning that if I was high in resources, I should divert a good chunk of the excess to minerals for mid game warship building needs. I had rad immune, both for the slightly better hab, and for the use of the radram for colonists.

At 2450, I have 59k resources, 260 potato bugs, and over 200 colloid FFs. My tech is 16/12/10/13/5/4. I only got 2 Ls and one level of C early from the AI. At the moment, I am headed for C17 for Death Stars(3 turns), but again, against humans would prolly need W1
...



[Updated on: Mon, 14 July 2008 00:05]

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Re: 2450 - 59k resources Mon, 14 July 2008 04:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
AR with strong 1 in 3 hab with an imm is nice. 59k res is nice. How much upside was left?

Going from All Expensive to 1 cheap/5 expensive costs 200 points in the RW (~233 if you take En to cheap). This drops you to a weak 1 in 4 hab (1 in 5 with En cheap) with an imm.

I'd be interested in knowing the res achieved with the reduced hab and in (small, normal) or (tiny, dense).

Cheers,
S.

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Re: 2450 - 59k resources Mon, 14 July 2008 08:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar
Very interesting! I hadn't seriously considered en expensive, but with the start@3 it really might have some mileage.

However... AR spends a heck of a lot of resources on research and on miners. Researching all-expensive fields, instead of being able to focus in cheap fields is a massive difference. Also, the slower pickup of mining technologies is painfull - you built 260 potato bugs!

Not a great comparison, but in The End my AR had the worst start I've ever seen. Far in a corner, with planet densities closer to sparse than the dense universe it was. Planets within ~400ly were habitable 1 in 5, but the race was 1 in 3.

At 2450, I had 14k resources, 16/12/7/15/8/4. Admitedly there was a small amount of tech trade there (not much, we were *spectacularly* unlucky with the transfers.) Like your race above I was only 3 years off death stars if I wanted them. I was already builing ultrabugs. I had 4832 mines worth of remote miners (your 260 potato bugs is 2600.) I had completed a war with one neighbour, and was preparing to fight another, although I hadn't needed as many ships as you have built. (Went on to win the game with 226k resources at 2516 Smile

If these two races were head to head in these 2450 conditions... Yours should win. But my point is that despite finding itself in worst-case-scenario conditions, the lower resourced race has still managed to out tech and out mine the all-expensive one up to this point.

I'm fascinated by the idea of a en-expensive AR though, don't get me wrong. I just think all-expensive is giving you deceptive resource numbers. I'd love to see what you can do with this idea if you work it some more.


[Updated on: Mon, 14 July 2008 08:57]

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Re: 2450 - 59k resources Mon, 14 July 2008 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigcanuknaz is currently offline bigcanuknaz

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 205
Registered: July 2004

No doubt. All expensive is not viable against humans. They will squash you when they see your growth.

right. you have to trade a bit of growth rate and/or hab to get 1 or 1 1/2 cheap. (I am currently thinking con cheap W normal for my next try, or maybe both cheap)

But the real question is whether N expensive is viable. It gives a massive boost in the very beginning from initial resource bump, and the ability to use those resources to spread fast.

What are the maths...

You get, what, a 1.41 x 1.29 boost in growth off the bat (1.82) But your level 4 N costs you 2 x 1.75 = 3.5 times more. But you don't have to research level 2 and 3, which saves you the same as the base cost of level 4. (fibonnacci)

Seems a fair disadvantage, but....

How to factor in the extra points, and the extra start boost. I guess the question is, you are 82% up. Can these other factors boost that start advantage to 250% or 300%? At 3.5k at 2420, I was just shy of 200% up. At 11k at 2430, I was over 200% up.

naz

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Re: 2450 - 59k resources Mon, 14 July 2008 11:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
It gives you an immediate boost which will swiftly be eaten away in the extra cost.
For example if you apply your resources to energy it will take 3 turns to get energy 4
(will have some resources to spare for other things in this)
A cheap En AR would also get energy 4 in 3 turns (with spare resources)

So if you are planning on taking advantage of the early boost you need to do something else with it.
But what (and what kind of race would most benefit?)
I suggest build ships.
Lets take a low growth (all expensive except con) big hab race (say 1 in 2?).
Turn 1 a couple of colony ships and some scouts (existing colony ship colonises blind).
You already have FM for ships so dont need to research that, so
Turn 2 get Con3 any spare resources to colonisers/scouts - 2 colonisers colonise blind unless your single scout has found a good planet).
On average 2 of your colonies should be green (might only be 1, might be 3)
Turn 3 Build MFs and colonisers - research now on energy.

So in turn 4 when the cheap AR is wondering if they want to research prop 2 or con 3 you are already spreading your empire.
Your iron crunch is also likely to be slightly less extreme due to spreading out earlier and not having quite so many resources.

Get con4 when you need it and then con7 for miners (you should save a few resources due to not having to research elec1-3 for miners and bio 1-3 for terraforming and minelayers).
Having weap cheap or expensive is up to you.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: 2450 - 59k resources Mon, 14 July 2008 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigcanuknaz is currently offline bigcanuknaz

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 205
Registered: July 2004

right. spread fast to double or even quadruple your resources again. I think (can't recall exactly), that I researched N4 1st, as I built ships.

Some things I have learned so far, to try out on my next try.

1. colonize blind. Don't waste iron on scouts (just a few to meet and greet). Colonization gives:
a) extra resources from the spread (only 2200 colonists)
b) extra minerals leftover from colonization
c) excellent mines per colonist for those first 2200 colonists (equiv of almost 20 mines per 10k colonists, and they are immediately built)
I'll prolly set up a medium freighter to rotate through the nearby small colonies to scoop up those minerals regularly. This will yield more and cost less than a potato bug.

2. thank you joseph... do *not* research N4. Do almost all ship building. (note, since I am *not* using IFE, I have no FM. Eventually I will try adding IFE and testing the impact, but with most races I test in small packed, the extra cost of boosters is less than the points and therefore growth and/or hab lost by using IFE. With this new approach of colonizing everything early to avoid scouting, it will even be better as less boosters will be able to be used, because they will have more docks at which to refuel. (Of course the MFs go straight and fast to destination.))

3. Bring back excess minerals!! (I got that from one of the other threads here!) This is small, but from all the planets potentially *huge.* More minerals at production centers, and less scouts built has a compounding effect on making less need for potato bugs, and the minerals (and resources)*that* frees up.

4. Take C cheap. (leverage the extra resources at least somewhere in tech)

5. Take W normal or cheap. Probably required against humans just to avoid hanging out the "kick me" sign.

I am finding this AR plays a bit like a -f race, that gets free factories that about double production, but where much of that extra production needs to be put into expensive (relative to mines) remote mi
...

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Re: 2450 - 59k resources Mon, 14 July 2008 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar
Just an aside... All AR's play like a -f race, not just this one Very Happy

I think when talking about being 200% ahead, you must remember that is largely because of the massive RW points given by all-expensive. What we really want to know, is what sort of impact to expect from en-expensive 2-cheap - basically the affect of just shifting en expensive to buy extra hab and start@3.

Not convinced about your colonising blind strategy. Works for a small radius, but how are you going to afford all the colonisers you'd need to find the further flung 'must-have' colonies swiftly enough? Maybe with massive habs this isn't such an issue... But 5 scouts works wonders, I think, and tells you more about your opponents (who will shoot your colonisers when they start planet hopping looking for somewhere to live, accidentally bombing their colonies as they go, but may let your scouts live, depending on their attitude.)

EDIT: And yes, your tech speed would probably be higher with a human to trade with. On the other hand, you've set yourself up with a race that is greedy on space, by design, and with expensive tech doesn't have a whole lot to offer in trade. Are you sure they won't just shoot you? Twisted Evil Best to reverse that kickme sign with cheap weap if you can.


[Updated on: Mon, 14 July 2008 21:19]

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Re: 2450 - 59k resources Tue, 15 July 2008 03:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bigcanuknaz is currently offline bigcanuknaz

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 205
Registered: July 2004

Oh, I agree with you, Dogthinkers.

The blind colonization will just be for the first 5 or 10 years (say to all planets out about to 183 ly (2 hops).

I might be able to set up a secondary hub or two by then, and depending on what my meet and greet scouts say, I'd have to either regular scout the border around those hubs, or if they are in open space, I might be able to continue the blind colonization.

On the cheap weapons, good point. If I really can get some early speed, then cheap weapons to go on an early offensive against a HG or HG neighbour, to get some space, would be great.

I just love those heavy duty resources, though. Ships and terraforming do *not* cost more, you end up doing a lot more of that than tech researching. And terraforming seems to be soooo vital to compounding speed with AR.

naz

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Re: 2450 - 59k resources Mon, 21 July 2008 08:39 Go to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1183
Registered: May 2008
With all 5 other fields expensive taking en exp instead of cheap gives you 234 points. With 3 other fields expensive and 2 cheap (weap and con, not that it makes a difference) it only gives you 143 points. Big difference. With 2 other fields expensive, 1 normal, 2 cheap (elect normal) it gives a puny 126. IOW, there's a huge difference.

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