Home World Forum
Stars! AutoHost web forums

Jump to Stars! AutoHost


 
 
Home » Stars! Clones, Extensions, Modding » FreeStars » Split Fleet Proposal
Split Fleet Proposal Fri, 20 June 2008 00:36 Go to next message
ck_drknes is currently offline ck_drknes

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 17
Registered: May 2007
Location: Why do you want to know?
Recently I've been working on yet another Rolling Eyes Stars! clone that I hope will have a better chance of completion than those before it. I've posted most of the code on http://hxnova.googlecode.com (around 11,000 lines so far). Its written in haXe, which compiles to flash, php, java script, and neko (runs on apache) so the plan is to create a flash font end that can run on the web browser or on the desktop using SWHX. Then the server could run in PHP or neko. The nice thing is that code doesn't need to be written twice as the client has access to the same code as the server (for example, the fuel usage function doesn't need to be written twice).

Anyways, I've come across one of the dreaded issues in Stars!, the split fleet dodge. Looking at the suggestions of other people, it seems like this is an overly complicated problem that is mainly created from the fact that a turn is really just a snapshot (as Ptolemy puts it). So to correct this, instead of allowing players to split their fleets in the middle of space as a sort of waypoint0 task, they should only be allowed to split their fleets when orbiting a planet, or else only as a waypoint 1+ task.

Looking at each case individually:

1) Split fleet at a star: This is absolutely needed as when ships are produced, they're put into fleets that the player might want to change the arrangement of. If a fleet is targeting another fleet that is currently at a star, it should simply go to that star and can chase down those fleets next turn.

This really is at no disadvantage to the chaser as their fleet will still be the same number of years behind as it was before. Say that a fleet is being chased by another that is one year behind. If it splits at a star, then the chasing fleet can target each separate fleet the next year and still be one year behind.

2) Split fleet as a waypoint 1+ order: This works so that when a chased fleet splits, the new fleets can be seen by the chasing fleet, which can target them the next turn.

However, there are two flaws here:

a) If a fleet splits and then merges again as a waypoint0, then the chasing fleet (which has probably split into parts to take out other parts of of the fleet being chased) has lost a lot of stacking. The fix to this is to not allow a fleet that has just split at a location to merge again the next year as a waypoint0 order.

b) The chasing fleet itself cannot split as a waypoint0 and target the separated ships, but it can still target the ships it wants to and split as a waypoint order.


While this seems kinda contrived, I think its the simplest solution to the problem. Overall, I hope it reduces the incentive to use the split fleet option to dodge another fleet and therefore not have to deal with the above exceptions nearly as much.

I'm open to any suggestions/criticisms on the idea.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Fri, 20 June 2008 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donjon is currently offline donjon

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 808
Registered: November 2002
Location: Benque Viejo del Carmen, ...

How about two fields in the fleet structure?

Previous #, and Present #...

Then orders are processed based on previous number (in the turn processor)

When a new move is performed Previous Fleet number is updated to the Present Fleet# as part of the m-file (automatically, not under control of the player)

I can conceive of many situations when one might wish to split the fleet away from a star. (even when not trying to take advantage of the bug)

regards,
dj

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Fri, 20 June 2008 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
IMHO the problem with splitting fleets is the ease that the splitter has in deciding which fleets are non-targetable, and hence survive. Conversely, the pursuer has nearly no control on which fleets will be targeted. Evil or Very Mad

So I wonder, wouldn't it be better to give more control to the pursuer, instead of taking it away from the splitter? Sherlock As Donjon said, there's plenty of valid reasons to split a fleet.

The pursuer should have the possibility of deciding which ships get pursued, or not pursued at all, should a split happen. By class, mass, attractiveness, battle orders or whatever. The splitter would lose the guarantee of success, and hopefully the worst abuses would be impossible. Twisted Evil



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Fri, 20 June 2008 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

One of the features removed from Stars! with V2.5 was battle orders for each ship type within a fleet, instead we have fleet battle plans.

One thing I'd like to see in a clone, is the re-insertion of the sub-fleet battle plan idea. Perhaps having fleet Groups which are controlled exactly like fleets in terms of movement,fuel sharing etc, but with each fleet having its own battle plan. This would allow for a Group plan that could cover things like splitting(eg a drop-drop with (eg)options:
split fleets: here, the group would be split and each fleet would follow the target fleet that best matches its battle orders
follow fleet X orders: the group doesn't split, and follows the target fleet that best matches the battle orders of fleet X

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Sat, 21 June 2008 04:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Coyote is currently offline Coyote

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 906
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pacific NW

I think I like Gible's original suggestion best, myself.
Secondly, separate battle orders for each ship class could be really useful.


[Updated on: Sat, 21 June 2008 04:55]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Sat, 21 June 2008 05:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 156
Registered: February 2005
Location: Shanghai
I worry that you could end up introducing too much micromanagement here. Better fleet orders would certainly important, but any significantly increased complexity could add 50% to the length of already long turns.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Sat, 21 June 2008 07:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Adacore wrote on Sat, 21 June 2008 21:28

I worry that you could end up introducing too much micromanagement here. Better fleet orders would certainly important, but any significantly increased complexity could add 50% to the length of already long turns.

I agree an increase in complexity is an issue, but atm many players are having to create psuedo groups anyway to get the advantage of multiple battle orders, this would simplify things. besides, you could always stick with one fleet in your group = what we have now(expect that split fleet targetting isn't based on battle orders)

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Sat, 21 June 2008 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ck_drknes is currently offline ck_drknes

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 17
Registered: May 2007
Location: Why do you want to know?
Ok, I think I'm going to have to go with Gible's suggestion, kinda.

There are a few issues though around this. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by groups of ships, but I'll allow battle orders to be set by design inside each fleet.

So when a fleet splits, the fleet following it will split based on its battle orders, and the percent of its target that's in each new "split" fleet (is there a noun for that, like a child fleet?? Rolling Eyes ). For example, if you have a particular ship design that you want to have take out their bombers, and their fleet splits into two groups where one has 20% of their bombers (by mass) and the other 60%, then you can expect whatever ship designs in you fleet targeting bombers to also split into groups of around 20% and 60%.

I think the split needs to occur by mass otherwise you could have an opponent, for example, who splits off a larger number of small freighters but keeps the far more important large freighters in a separate, well defended group. Then, most of your fleet would target the small freighters, leaving the large freighters (probably) unharmed.


[Updated on: Sat, 21 June 2008 15:08]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Sat, 21 June 2008 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Coyote is currently offline Coyote

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 906
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pacific NW

Why make things more complicated than they need to be? A simple "no splitting and merging fleets in deep space" is easy to understand and doesn't require any convoluted coding that tries to guess what you want.

Perhaps fleets in deep space could only be allowed to merge or split if they're stopped. This removes practically nothing in the way of options but still makes things a lot easier. Just a simple check regardless of circumstances - if the fleet's moving, you can't change its composition. If you're changing its composition, it can't move.


[Updated on: Sat, 21 June 2008 15:44]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Sat, 21 June 2008 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ck_drknes is currently offline ck_drknes

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 17
Registered: May 2007
Location: Why do you want to know?
Coyote wrote on Sat, 21 June 2008 15:39

Why make things more complicated than they need to be? A simple "no splitting and merging fleets in deep space" is easy to understand and doesn't require any convoluted coding that tries to guess what you want.

Perhaps fleets in deep space could only be allowed to merge or split if they're stopped. This removes practically nothing in the way of options but still makes things a lot easier. Just a simple check regardless of circumstances - if the fleet's moving, you can't change its composition. If you're changing its composition, it can't move.


I think what you're proposing is an easier (and better) version of what I had originally proposed; instead of letting them move, then split, yours only allows them to split. This would probably remove any of the complexity surrounding the issue and eliminate the use of the split fleet dodge, but it also cripples "normal" play as well. As the others have said, there are definite situations where you would want to split your fleet in space, and not have to lose a turn in the process.

Splitting based on percent mass and design targets should remove any incentive to try and use a split fleet dodge and will still allow for "normal" play (as well as a slight bonus to control in battle).


Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Mon, 23 June 2008 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
Well, I've come to regard this as a pretty workable solution, once you solve the outstanding nitty-gritty details:

Deal Transfer of fuel between fleets at the same location should still be allowed, at least to a certain extent.

Deal Transfer of personnel and cargo would be highly desirable too, but perhaps is not essential.

Deal Transfers of ships themselves between fleets should be discouraged, but I'm not 100% sure the necessary functionality can be maintained if all are forbidden. Confused

Then everybody would be forced to just bunch their ships into independent fleets that just happened to travel together. These independent fleets would be independently targetable, and would also have independent battle plans. Very Happy

One of the main reasons to group fleets into larger fleets is fuel, hence detail #1.

Other reasons to group ships into fleets exist, and these will need some support to reduce micromanagement and actually discourage the "one big fleet does all" mentality:

Deal battle plans should be able to be shared. Cool

Deal easy ways to say "this fleet will follow this other fleet(s) until new orders" must exist.

Deal the ability to still enter battle as a single token for ships of the same design should exist, even if it's not always used.

Deal others that perhaps I'm overlooking...



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Mon, 23 June 2008 23:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ck_drknes is currently offline ck_drknes

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 17
Registered: May 2007
Location: Why do you want to know?
[email

m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Mon, 23 June 2008 14:23]Well, I've come to regard this as a pretty workable solution, once you solve the outstanding nitty-gritty details...


I'm sorry, I don't understand what exactly what you're talking about. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here but what are you refering to by this? There's been a few different proposals in this thread...


[Updated on: Mon, 23 June 2008 23:32]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Tue, 24 June 2008 01:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 156
Registered: February 2005
Location: Shanghai
ck_drknes wrote on Mon, 23 June 2008 23:18

I'm sorry, I don't understand what exactly what you're talking about. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here but what are you refering to by this? There's been a few different proposals in this thread...



By "this" he means the list of suggestions he posted below his comment. The general gist of them being to ban split/merge in space but instead have a system where instead of one large fleet with all your ships, you have lots of smaller fleets that travel together to make a large group.

It still sounds like more micromanagement to me. Tactically useful, perhaps, but still time consuming - you'd have to look at the journey you expected the group to take and create fleets which allowed you to split in any of the ways you could imagine wanting to during that journey...

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Tue, 24 June 2008 04:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
Adacore wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 07:54

It still sounds like more micromanagement to me. Tactically useful, perhaps, but still time consuming - you'd have to look at the journey you expected the group to take and create fleets which allowed you to split in any of the ways you could imagine wanting to during that journey...

Yep. That's why I'm still not sure it can be done right. And if you cannot guarantee a minimum of almost-split-like flexibility, then nobody will want to fly under those restrictions. Shocked

The 1st exception that comes to mind is crash-sweeping of minefields with chaff. It can be construed as a special case where you detach a "suicidal sweep" fleet of (n) cheapest ships, to be actually split by the server, but even that could be too restricted and open undesirable loopholes.

Other tricky instances could be:

Deal cloaked fleets detaching spyships, skirmishers, bombers et al while on the move

Deal attackers splitting their bombers to hit several undefended targets at once (something hard to foresee)



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Tue, 24 June 2008 04:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
ck_drknes wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 05:18

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here but what are you refering to by this? There's been a few different proposals in this thread...

Most or all of these proposals revolve around limiting the ability to split fleets. Twisted Evil

But this seemingly simple solution will need to address what the players actually want to do with their fleets, which often includes splitting them. Confused

Hence my chiming in...



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Mon, 28 July 2008 23:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stranger is currently offline stranger

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 16
Registered: November 2003
Location: Oregon, USA
Here is my thinking - the "problem" comes from situations like the following:

I have 100 ships of type A. An opponent is chasing down my 100 ships with his fleet. I split off 1 ship, and have it move in a direction opposite the other 99.

Result - the person chasing my "fleet" of 100 ships catches the singleton, and my 99 get away.

There is really only one intelligent options for my opponent's fleet:

1 - Always chase the most expensive/ group.

Is there anything else that might be a better interpretation of "chase down this fleet?" Everything else I've come up with seems pretty abusable (always go for the fleet I can intercept, always go for the most numerous, always go for the fleet including the most expensive ship).

If indeed Rule #1 is always what you want, then I say you just make that the default rule, and be done with it.

--Mr. Strange

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Tue, 29 July 2008 00:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 156
Registered: February 2005
Location: Shanghai
The "chase the expensive fleet" option is fine, I'd think, although it doesn't help the situation where the enemy fleet splinters into, say, 10 equal sized fragments. I'd say that's a legitimate tactic, but if you wanted to counter it you'd need to provide an option to allow players to order their fleets to split in pursuit in the same ratio as the fleet they're pursuing.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Tue, 29 July 2008 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
stranger wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 05:40

1 - Always chase the most expensive/ group.

That's a very interesting rule which would be useful in a lot of situations... provided that's what the pursuer actually wants. Twisted Evil

It could be that a whole bunch of cheap/expendable ships is more expensive than the nifty bigger ship they're protecting. Sherlock

One could want to destroy Bombers and Freighters regardless of the cost of the Battleships that escort them. Pirate

So, leave several options open for the pursuer. That should make it harder/impossible for the pursued to rig things. Whip



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Tue, 29 July 2008 05:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
Adacore wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 06:06

The "chase the expensive fleet" option is fine, I'd think, although it doesn't help the situation where the enemy fleet splinters into, say, 10 equal sized fragments. I'd say that's a legitimate tactic, but if you wanted to counter it you'd need to provide an option to allow players to order their fleets to split in pursuit in the same ratio as the fleet they're pursuing.

That option already exists: tell a bunch of your ships to pursue the enemy and then split them manually. Twisted Evil



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Tue, 29 July 2008 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
The most expensive part that you have battle orders to kill...

I think Stars! does that now. I once sent a small group (2 or 3) of BBs to suicide on a fleet with orders to kill bombers. Their fleet split and sent the bombers unescorted, and my BBs caught them (saving my worlds and ending his counter attack), but didn't go after the larger fleet of ships that they didn't have orders to shoot at.



- LEit

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Wed, 30 July 2008 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
LEit wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 16:43

The most expensive part that you have battle orders to kill...

I think Stars! does that now. I once sent a small group (2 or 3) of BBs to suicide on a fleet with orders to kill bombers. Their fleet split and sent the bombers unescorted, and my BBs caught them (saving my worlds and ending his counter attack), but didn't go after the larger fleet of ships that they didn't have orders to shoot at.

Pretty cool, that. Cool Have you managed to testbed exactly how/when that works?



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Wed, 30 July 2008 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 568
Registered: December 2003
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
LEit wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 16:43

The most expensive part that you have battle orders to kill...

I think Stars! does that now. I once sent a small group (2 or 3) of BBs to suicide on a fleet with orders to kill bombers. Their fleet split and sent the bombers unescorted, and my BBs caught them (saving my worlds and ending his counter attack), but didn't go after the larger fleet of ships that they didn't have orders to shoot at.

As far as I remember the pursuing fleet will go after the fleet with the original fleet number or the lowest numbered fleet, so your catching the bombers might have been luck (and your enemy's ignorance of the mechanics).



Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Thu, 31 July 2008 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
I'm pretty sure it's not the lowest or original fleet number. I think it's the largest in some calculation, but I'm not sure of the details. I havn't tested it, it may have been that the bombers had the highest boraanium + resource cost of the two parts, as bombers cost a lot of boranium.


- LEit

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Mon, 25 August 2008 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Downsider is currently offline Downsider

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 35
Registered: June 2003
Location: Derbyshire, England
The persuer in a split fleet scenario has greater control in which fleet is persued than we might think.

Stars! uses the primary target in the fleets battle orders to decide which fleet to follow. In LEit's example, his suicide BBs had orders to kill bombers before any other ship, so they followed them instead of the heavier, more expensive BBs. I have test bedded this before and used it in game a couple of times; a very useful trick to know. An enemy can't take your planets if he has no bombers or freighters left Smile

Additionally, it is fleets of greater mass that are targeted first, rather than their cost or ID (just tested this to be sure). I assume this is because you always know the mass of a fleet and you can never be 100% sure what the min and res requirements of an enemy design are even if you have seen it in battle (due to miniturisation). It just happens that the more expensive ships are usually the heaviest.
[note: - I haven't tested for when a fleet splits into two fleets of the same mass. This may be decided by ID but I would guess that it is random]

So, with being able to select the class of ship followed and knowing that the heaviest fleet will be followed, the persuer has an element of control. IMO, splitting your fleet to dodge an attack comes at a price as you will always loose ships and the remaining fleet will be easier to kill. Personally, I consider it a tactic to be used in only the most dire of situations.



"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" - Salvor Hardin

Report message to a moderator

Re: Split Fleet Proposal Tue, 26 August 2008 03:32 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
Downsider wrote on Mon, 25 August 2008 14:37

So, with being able to select the class of ship followed and knowing that the heaviest fleet will be followed, the persuer has an element of control.

That's great to know! Twisted Evil


Quote:

IMO, splitting your fleet to dodge an attack comes at a price as you will always loose ships and the remaining fleet will be easier to kill. Personally, I consider it a tactic to be used in only the most dire of situations.

Amazingly, this often used trick seems to have been poorly researched. Whip



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic: hxnova
Next Topic: Thoughts for UI improvements
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Thu Mar 28 17:46:20 EDT 2024