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icon14.gif  minigun frigate chaff Sun, 20 January 2008 20:14 Go to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

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Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar
FF+QJ5+Minigun

Wonderfull.

Once you are in the BB era it's only a couple of resources more than regular scout chaff.

It's a totally disposible minesweeper. They kill over 200 mines each, yet they are cheap enough you can throw them at fields like crash sweepers. 2000 mine field? Just throw in 20/25 of these into it at warp 8/9 - it'll be gone next year and you'll still have 10 left.

Less attractive than scout chaff (so the cheaper scouts get shot first in battle if you bring both,) yet thanks to the extra bor cost it remains attractive enough to draw fire away from your beam BBs. It still has the extra armour to make it expensive to kill with dedicated chaff killers.

The range 2 beam even makes it a plausible freighter / minelayer killer if your opponent exposes them (I know, not very effective, but it worked several times in the game I just played.)

If your opponent tries to skirmish with them you can just overwhelm them with targets since they are so cheap... And if they are busy eating them, you can just group them all to one place occaisionaly, and laugh as your 'chaff' chews through all their unmerged skirmishers thanks to the 'shoot everything in range' gatling ability and high init.

Laughing


I've used gatling chaff before, in late game, for the same purposes... But they were a bit frustrating to use because they were more attractive than scout chaff, so I had to remember to keep them out of battle if I thought I had enough scout chaff... No such problem here.


[Updated on: Sun, 20 January 2008 20:17]

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Re: minigun frigate chaff Thu, 24 January 2008 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
This sounds nice, however there are always some BUTs Wink :
- one more design slot needed, as you'll still need a shielded one sweeper,
- you can't afford to build them in numbers. At least my ISs usually needed too much bora for my beamer BBs to be able to use it for such a "chaff".
- they're just a little bit less attractive than scout chaff. I simply don't like to count on such a small difference in the chaos of a battle.
- crash-sweepers can be intercepted with "regular" DD sweepers with a single Gattling gun. Just 2 of DDs need to survive the first shot of FFs to destroy ALL of them in return-fire. And you'd need about 20 of FFs to kill a single DD sweeper. Sad

BR, Iztok

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Re: minigun frigate chaff Thu, 24 January 2008 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Location: Hiding from Meklar
iztok wrote on Fri, 25 January 2008 06:18

- one more design slot needed, as you'll still need a shielded one sweeper,

You do?

Quote:

- you can't afford to build them in numbers. At least my ISs usually needed too much bora for my beamer BBs to be able to use it for such a "chaff".

But these are instead of regular sweepers. Depending on your tech level, we're talking about one or two boranium more than regular chaff (earlier in the game than that I don't think they are worthwhile.)

Quote:

- they're just a little bit less attractive than scout chaff. I simply don't like to count on such a small difference in the chaos of a battle.

Yes, you do have to be more carefull, although you could theoretically put them on a scout hull, but they wouldn't be as good for other purposes then.

Quote:

- crash-sweepers can be intercepted with "regular" DD sweepers with a single Gattling gun. Just 2 of DDs need to survive the first shot of FFs to destroy ALL of them in return-fire. And you'd need about 20 of FFs to kill a single DD sweeper. Sad

You're assuming all the sweepers are flying to exactly the same place... Another advantage of using 20 tiny ships instead of 3-4 more expensive ships, is that they are harder to intercept, Wink
...

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Re: minigun frigate chaff Fri, 25 January 2008 02:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1202
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 24 January 2008 21:24

Depending on your tech level, we're talking about one or two boranium more than regular chaff

Err, have you actually checked the prices? I did:
weap    bora costs  
tech  xLaser  MiniG
-----+-------+------
 8       6     17
12       5     15
16       3     11
20       2      7
24       1      5
26       1      5

Quote:

You're assuming all the sweepers are flying to exactly the same place... Another advantage of using 20 tiny ships instead of 3-4 more expensive ships, is that they are harder to intercept, Wink

IMO this is a moot point. Because ot the "split fleet dodge" exploit it is IMPOSSIBLE to prevent minesweeping. I too can do that with 10 shielded DDs, split into 4 groups (3/3/2/2), where 3 and 3 retreats, 2 and 2 moves in. But in this case ALL my ships survive one minehit, also a detonating one.

From my POV using unshielded FFs just makes sweeping more costly and the game more MM-intense. To both issues I developed a very low tolerance. Wink

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Fri, 25 January 2008 02:37]

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Re: minigun frigate chaff Sat, 26 January 2008 21:55 Go to previous message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Don't forget to take into account the fact that FFs are usually cheaper than SS.

My mistake on the bora. It's not quite as bad as that though - SS is cheaper than FF unless bio is being researched. I must admit I didn't pay that much attention to bora cost - it's resource cost that interests me *much* more usually.

I just checked the game I just used them in, these were the costs:

SS+Xray+QJ5 = 11r+5/3/4
FF+MGun+QJ5 = 10r+4/7/3

So I paid quite a lot more boranium, but saved resources, iron and germ. If boranium were tight, then I'd use regular chaff mostly. If boranium was plentiful (by comparison,) then I wouldn't build SS chaff at all.

I don't understand how using completely disposible ships, that double up as chaff, can be seen as increasing the MM. I found it far less work than using a more expensive ship that I need to worry about trying to keep some alive, and trying to make sure I have enough of in each theatre. They are also more reliable - for example sending two groups of two DDs in, as you describe above might have the firepower to sweep the field, but the odds of both (or even one) reaching the centre is not good. Using these litte fellas is a lot more reliable, since the sweepers are split into more groups.


[Updated on: Sat, 26 January 2008 22:15]

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