Report message to a moderator

Oh yeah. The old IFE/NRSE debate again. Doggone if'n it don't look right good being on the forefront of Stars! conversation as opposed to say ... religious tolerance.

ALERT!

I PERSONALLY like IFE w/o NRSE, if I could only afford it in my race designs. But, generally speaking, once I design a race that-a-way, I sit and I ponder and I wonder and I ponder some more. I says to myself, I says, "Jim, ol' buddy, you could take them thar points and add more and better factories and make 'em cheaper and come out of the gate like gangbusters and kill folks, or at least make 'em real nervous-like." And then thar I go and I change things around and my factories look better and it makes my growth curve go higher, quicker and longer and I'm happy and they is NOT!

But that's just me.

And that's with a race that just screams for scoops, the SS. On account of their need for covert ships cruising around in enemy space and all, you understand. (Someone else has probably pointed this out, but I'm recently back after a bit of a break and not really reading these posts real careful-like.) I also agree with the statement that I read (briefly and in passing that SD can make good use of the scoops and can generally afford it better than most races.

I also agree that universe size & player density along with victory conditions play a big part in dictating whether or not scoops are worth the points.

But I'm just a real agreeable fellar!

End of alert.

Thank you for your patience and kind attention,

The Crusader

[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2003 16:52]

Report message to a moderator

Abaddon wrote on Wed, 28 May 2003 02:55

And speaking of radiation, if you have really high radiation tolerance or even immunity, shouldn't that make you immune to smart and neutron bombs?

Despite the names, it would seem that the smart bombs are a biological/chemical agent and not radiation since they require bio and weapon tech, not energy. Plus there's no minimum kill value which you would expect from a big explosion of hard radiation. And it seems more likely that IS races would object to the slower, more painful biological/chemical weapons if they are already using regular bombs.

Report message to a moderator

Good answer! I hadn't considered that at all. Just another example of how dangerous my assumptions can be.

The Crusader

Report message to a moderator

zoid wrote on Sat, 03 May 2003 23:20

Any way you want to arrange the priorities, there seems to be a tendency to take IFE, NRSE, expensive prop research, and gravity immunity as a package. And that's quite a package, with a net cost of 547 RW points. What do you gain in the end? ADVANTAGES: 1) 15% better fuel economy 2) FM engine (with expensive prop research forget the galaxy scoop) 3) Perfect gravity habs at any planet 4) No need to terraform gravity 5) Early warp 10 capable engine 6) One additional starting tech in propulsion DISADVANTAGES: 1) -547 RW points! 2) Bulky, expensive engines make bulky, expensive ships 3) No fuel scooping 4) No tech trade possiblity with propulsion 5) Too often, others share the same immunity as you, limiting it's value. 6) You've used 2 LRT's, and more LRT's may cost more.

547 points????? BS

IFE costs 80 points
Immunity costs 220 points
NRSE pays 55 points
Prop pays 50 points

so? 80 + 220 - 55 - 50 = 195

That combo costs 195 points in my RW.

You have options to be without IFE like having HE or IT prt or have ISB lrt. Otherwise you just cannot spread quick enough (at warp 7+). Even then the warp 9 with FM is serious advantage! For the rest these 80 points are very well paid for IFE. Other low tech engines are 3 times slower. When you arrive you will find your neighbours orbital is already built there. They can reuse their transports 3 times meanwhile you have to build them each year.

NRSE and expensive prop people just actually take to pay 80 points for the fuel mizer. Its BS they tell that IS-10 is good engine. This engine is making everything about 20-25% more expensive. Rams are certainly good to have but people do not have points for that. Instead they prefer to have their economy 25% stronger.

Now that immunity costs 220 points and so people pay with more narrow initial hab. Typically taking 1 in 8 hab instead of 1 in 4. The immunity allows you to have less MM since even at max tech you can terra only half the planets to green.

With 1 in 4 hab you typically can colonise almost everything but the resulting hab values after terraforming are mostly low. You end up building factories at piles of your yellow planets 20 turns and terraforming another 20 turns... then you fill them up because they dont grow on their own and then they build factories again. It all together takes ages. Since the game is over at 2500 usually ... you do not exactly have the time you need to get anywhere with these bloody yellows there. OTOH without them your 1 in 8 hab neighbour will pass you with resources.

Still 220 points is a price one has to think twice about. I think immunity is matter of taste really.

Report message to a moderator

Kotk wrote on Fri, 27 June 2003 08:42

547 points????? BS Immunity costs 220 points

220? BS? I believe Zoid may more be correct in his math. This should begin to scare 'some' people around here. Miracles do still happen you know, Zoid.
The cost of immunity is variably dependent on the growth percentage of the race is it not? A 15% race will get much cheaper immunity cost than a 20%, which would be well over 1000 points, no?

Report message to a moderator

I also believe that TT makes immunities less expensive...

(or was it the other way round???)

Robert

Report message to a moderator

IIRC, the cost of the immunity is strongly affected by the hab your replacing and width of the other two bands. The cost increase from going to maximum width gravity to immunity may be 200 depending on the width of the other bands. However if the other bands are at maximum, the cost of a gravity immunity exceeds 1000 points. If your gravity band was set to minimum width, and the other two are set to maximum width, the cost of clicking the immunity exceeds 2000 points.

Robert is correct that TT does make it a little cheaper but it should be noted that TT is also affected by the width of the hab bands.

Paladin

[Updated on: Fri, 27 June 2003 12:21]

Report message to a moderator

Costs seem to vary according to PRT, growth, LRT's taken, etc. Can't really say that all costs are absolute, so far as I know - which usually isn't very far because of my natural laziness, caused no doubt by the very fact of my location.

Which reminds me, we need a smiley of the good, old Stainless Banner in here. Just for little ol' me.

Merely a suggestion, mind you. I ain't a-givin' out no orders to nobody, no where, no time; no how!

Respectfully,
The Crusader

Report message to a moderator

Robert wrote on Fri, 27 June 2003 11:07

I also believe that TT makes immunities less expensive... (or was it the other way round???) Robert

No, yes. With TT the immunity cost slightly more points.

Report message to a moderator

Kotk wrote on Fri, 27 June 2003 06:42

547 points????? BS IFE costs 80 points Immunity costs 220 points NRSE pays 55 points Prop pays 50 points so? 80 + 220 - 55 - 50 = 195 That combo costs 195 points in my RW.

Well, being the mathematical wizard I am (not), I had to make it easy for myself. Here's how I came up with my figures...

Selected CA because it starts at 0 points with no modifications.
Selected IFE -78.
Selected NRSE -25.
Selected gravity immunity -597.
Selected +75 propulsion research -547.

I checked it again just now and it's still the same. As the others said, you must be also making other choices that mitigate the cost of these factors. If not....

I want your RW.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Sotek wrote on Sat, 28 June 2003 04:10

Idly, reading this, by the criteria aforementioned for determining cost of immunity (Specifically, full-width hab versus the immunity), Zoid is incorrect. Not *very* incorrect, but incorrect nonetheless.

Actually, Zoid is correct in this case. He did not say what the immunity costs.
He said using the options he listed it would cost a total of -547 points for those selections, and this is correct if you start the race wizard at default 15% growth with zero points. (What he added was using CA as the default for zero points without having to make adjustments)

Quote:

You see, he forgot the -144 for full-width grav, so it's really only 428 points for the immunity. This doesn't completely negate his point, but hey.

Yes 428 would appear to be the cost, being the difference between the immune points and the full width points. But who does that when designing race? What most do is start with defaults and start clicking. So if you start with default CA, starting with zero points, when you select immune gravity you get -572. So that is what you have to work with to get to zero or above. The other Zoid options gives you -547.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Sotek wrote on Sun, 29 June 2003 11:48

Except that what you really care about is the hab value (the 1 in n), and the immunity gives you the same 1 in n as a full-width band. So you have to narrow the other two bands some to get the actual same hab.

The G hab value, 1 in n, is the same for the default value, the full width, and the immunity: 1 in 2.
The difference is in the points cost for the three different settings and the percent of ideal hab.
As per the help file:
"Selecting immunity is different than expanding the habitable range to fill the entire spectrum. Immunity treats every point in the spectrum as 100% ideal. A range widened to fill the spectrum treats only the mid-point as 100% ideal. The edges of the range are 0% ideal."
So the immunity has the maximum benefit but also at the highest cost. So you get what you pay for.

Report message to a moderator

zoid wrote on Sat, 28 June 2003 00:12

Selected CA because it starts at 0 points with no modifications. Selected IFE -78. Selected NRSE -25. Selected gravity immunity -597. Selected +75 propulsion research -547. I checked it again just now and it's still the same. As the others said, you must be also making other choices that mitigate the cost of these factors. If not.... I want your RW.

But you have same RW.
As others pointed out the cost of immunity depends on other settings. Most importantly it depends what you have there as other hab settings before you change it to immunity.
Yes one can say immune gravity costs 6000: He first make race with gravity most narrow most right and temperature and radiation immune with 20% growth. Now he click gravity immune too and bang, there it go 6025 points.

The standard Humanoid with PRT changed to CA is nothing near what people commonly use as race.

So what i first took was a 1 in 4 hab 18% growth HP without immunity that i would play in game. I rarely use wider hab for any race, so i thought it is good starting point. Then i shifted the habs around to make gravity all wide still having 0 points left over. It was because all-wide gravity is the closest thing available to gravity immunity. After that i only checked what the immunity itself really costs to me. Immunity is not taken because of the hab range it gives but because the speed it gives thanks to the fact its terraformed already to max.

I got that it costs 220 points. So i assume that with any real race it costs about 220 points not 500 or 6000.

Report message to a moderator

Kotk wrote on Tue, 01 July 2003 04:59

But you have same RW. As others pointed out the cost of immunity depends on other settings. Most importantly it depends what you have there as other hab settings before you change it to immunity. Yes one can say immune gravity costs 6000: He first make race with gravity most narrow most right and temperature and radiation immune with 20% growth. Now he click gravity immune too and bang, there it go 6025 points.

The cost for anything in the Race Wizard is always the difference between what it was before you click on it and what it is after you click on it at that point in time. Immunity changes in cost depending on other variables, just as do LRTs when several have already been selected and you select say a fifth or sixth LRT, or when selecting several techs at a cheap cost. In each case there comes a point when the price increase is too high to be affordable.

Quote:

The standard Humanoid with PRT changed to CA is nothing near what people commonly use as race.

No, it just gives you a starting point of zero when trying to determine what a series of selections might end up costing.
As Zoid did: IFE + NRSE + gravity immunity +75 propulsion = -547.
With any starting number other than zero you have to add or subtract the difference. So CA is a quick way to start at zero when checking numbers only.

Quote:

So what i first took was a 1 in 4 hab 18% growth HP without immunity that i would play in game.

HP? Looks more like HG to me?

Quote:

I rarely use wider hab for any race, so i thought it is good starting point. Then i shifted the habs around to make gravity all wide still having 0 points left over.

Why? Are you going to use all wide?

Quote:

It was because all-wide gravity is the closest thing available to gravity immunity. After that i only checked what the immunity itself really costs to me.

If it makes you feel better then do it. You still end up with the same points: click on immunity first, or go all wide and then click on immunity. And if you end up with the same total, that makes the cost the same.

Quote:

I got that it costs 220 points. So i assume that with any real race it costs about 220 points not 500 or 6000.

Not in my RW. If I have 18% 1 in 4 hab with zero points and click on g immunity I end up with -673. IF I set to max wide g and then click on immunity I end up with -673. Even the difference between max wide and immune g is not 220. So post your race settings to show how you get 220?
Again the bottom line is you have to end with a points number that is not negative to create a valid race. The cost of any immunity is relative to the difference before you click and after you click on immunity. In most cases this will be several hundred point, usually near 500 or so, and higher with increased hab settings above 15% default and if it is a second or third immunity which also increases the price quite a bit.

Report message to a moderator

BlueTurbit wrote on Tue, 01 July 2003 17:51

Quote: I got that it costs 220 points. So i assume that with any real race it costs about 220 points not 500 or 6000. Not in my RW. If I have 18% 1 in 4 hab with zero points and click on g immunity I end up with -673. IF I set to max wide g and then click on immunity I end up with -673. Even the difference between max wide and immune g is not 220. So post your race settings to show how you get 220?

I dont remember what race i used. But lets take another one...
SD, OBRM
.21 to 1.80
-144 to 80
13 to 69
15% 1 in 4
2500 15/7/21 less g 11/3/20
Energy propulsion normal and weapons/construction cheap.
0 leftover

I Modify its hab:
0.12 to 8.00
-144 to 80
47 to 77
0 leftover.

Now i click to immune to gravity -208 points.

That std Humanoid turned into CA has insane wide hab.
HG usually take immunity with habs like 1 in 10 and 1 in 8. Yes, -f can afford 1 in 4 or 1 in 5.
6 clicks from "virtually all" around what the original test was made is only affordable for HE so its points cost is irrelevant from usual race designing perspective.

Report message to a moderator

How much colonists Radiating Hydro-Ram Scoop actually kill?

Never used it

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Sun, 05 February 2006 08:05]

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator