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Re: Where do you hold Fri, 10 August 2007 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
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joseph wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 11:31

Ah you misunderstand me.


I must because I still don't see what you are saying.

Quote:

Compare by the way I have simplified my numbers slightly AND I have not considered overpoping (makes the maths much more complicated!).
(A 50%Hab world produces 150Kt of pop at 1500pop/30%CAP and it produces the same at 2500/50%CAP)


You are saying a 50% hab world will produce 150kt of colonists with 1500kt pop in orbit and 30% capacity on the planet? What growth rate? OBRM?

The 1500kt in space will make that all on its own at 20% PGR. Obviously the planet will add more. Trying OBRM on/off and 19/20 PGR, I can't make the total come out to 150kt so I don't see what you are saying.

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Re: Where do you hold Sun, 12 August 2007 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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He's trying to remind you that a world at 50% capacity, produces about the same amount of colonists as the same world at 30% capacity.

Essentially, a reminder that rather than letting the world go to 50%, you usually should be filling other worlds, as not even the absolute number of colonists produced per turn at the world is growing, let alone the % growth (which is falling)

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Re: Where do you hold Mon, 13 August 2007 01:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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Thanks for pointing that out I finally understand what he was talking about. 50% still yields more resources.


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Re: Where do you hold Tue, 14 August 2007 06:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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No what I am saying is that there are currently 2 ways of getting to 100% hold on a planet.

Conventional wisdom says that a hold somewhere in the range of 25-33% will be quicker.
The same wisdom says that you will get more resources if you hold at 50%.

What some people dont realise is that if you calculate total resources over the whole period it takes to get to 100% hold
on worse planets it actually gives more resources to have the lower hold levels.
The fact that these resources come in the 15-22 year time scale also tends to discourage people from doing it.
"I would rather have an extra 50 resources this year than an extra 100 in 15 years time"

*Details
on a 50% HAB world you would (where you did the 50% hold) spend 9 years getting slowly more resources while the pop rose from 25% to 50% then 7 years getting 250 rather than 125 resources. You would then spend another 7 years getting 250 resources while the lower hold would have reached 100% and be getting 500 resources.
At the end of the 22 year period the 25% hold would have brought in approx 300 extra resources. However at the 15 year point the 50% hold would have had a lead in resources of about 1400 (which obviously it loses over the next 7 years).
*End details

What I have found is that there is a 3rd viable way.

Go to the lower hold limit (somewhere in the 25-33% range) stick pop in orbit for enough turns so that your pop on planet + pop in orbit = 50% hold.

Then let the pop overfow + the planet growth bring you up to 50% hold (which should be a bit quicker than getting up to 50% hold just using planet growth and might gain you back 1 or 2 of the turns you spent sticking pop in orbit).

Then just build up orbital pop as usual for a 50% hold until you have enough to fill to 100% (again this point will be reached quicker due to having pop in orbit earlier).

This beats the other methods because
A) It provides the largest amount of resources over the 22 year period. (beating BOTH other methods).
B) It doesnt fall
...




Joseph
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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Tue, 14 August 2007 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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Where exactly do these "extra resources" come from?


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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Tue, 14 August 2007 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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He reaches the final hold faster than waiting to hold at 50%.
He reaches it a little slower than holding at 25% / 33%, but the time he spends at 50% makes him beat the resource total.

He's still delaying (very) short term resources to get better return over the medium term, but he's just taking a middle path between the two approaches. It's a nice result, because he's not delaying his resources as long as the normal hold at 25/33, but he still gets more out in the long term too. As he says, that only holds true for moderate greens though (which aren't really your feeder worlds anyway - your breeders are what typically generates your orgies, when they are done sending population to the lesser worlds.)

Personally, my approach is to go with low holds to maximise my resources over the medium term rather than short term, but I am not afraid to drop pop early, or even abandon the orgy completely for a while, if I need resources for something urgently.


[Updated on: Tue, 14 August 2007 23:57]

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Wed, 15 August 2007 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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Once you get a major Orgy up like 6M, can you use that to generate new orgies faster? Like spreading fire?


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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Wed, 15 August 2007 04:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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Quote:

Once you get a major Orgy up like 6M, can you use that to generate new orgies faster? Like spreading fire?


Yes (at the cost of a short term hit/delay in resources).
At the turn you have 6M dont drop the 2 and a bit M onto the planet. Instead build 3 SF.
Next turn load the .6M that were the overflow into the 3 SF and send them hurtling towards where you want the new orgy (anywhere up to 5 years travel away).
Throw 3 of these "fire brands" at a world and it will have its own orgy in (approx) 10 years.



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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Wed, 15 August 2007 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Sat, 04 August 2007 18:13

Here's a sample race, for fun. Feel free to rip it apart Wink

IS (duh)
ISB, OBRM, NAS, RS
1.04g to 2.00g (24 clicks wide)
-140^ to 140^ (70 clicks wide)
Rad immune
20% PGR, 1in5 (only one click in grav off 1in4)
1/1000
5/25/5/4g
10/3/12
weap, con, prop all cheap
el normal
en and bio expensive


I think this is a good template for a standard -f playstyle and highlights all the other options you can make.
You can scrape points from the hab, tech, drop to 19% or even lose a few mines operated.
Places to put those points - IFE, TT (with narrower hab), take 1/900 res, factories 10/25/10, drop NAS.

I would never drop ISB unless you know you won't be going out beyond 200 l.y. AND that you are going for a wide hab, long term capacity tactic.

The hardest decision I find is on the tech page.
Weaps and Con both cheap is pretty standard.
After that anything goes and is invariably tied to the LRT choices and what sort of MM you want to have to put into the early "getting ready" phase (see below).

The other bane, for IS, is the early researching and getting fully ready for colonisation "in time".
Starting with all fields 0 (or prop at 1) makes things fiddly - not least having to balance buying the moving tech, buying scouts, buying enough mines (especially with a low min conc draw) and buying some terra tech (or weaps to escort your longer distance colonising parties).
You need to have gone through it in advance, including buying the escort ships, or you'll end up running out of Iron or resources.
Can often end up waiting for an extra turn, allowing the then bigger HW to build the ships more comfortably. (velvetthroat mentioned having the 1/900 to help with the ship building problem).

Anyway, I like -f IS and the above is how I tend to look at things when sitting down at the RW.
M
...

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Mon, 10 September 2007 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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I did a test between 20% PRG and 1000 pop eff, vs 19% PRG and 900 pop eff. Same seeded map, same start conditions, no AI. Both made it to 14k by 50. However one had 25 planets (20%) and the other 33 (19%, but most were deep yellow or red's that would one day be greens), and the 19% was about 500 resources in the lead.

(side note: I used slightly different play styles too, the 900 I forgot to build early warships to guard [pretend to guard] my territory. While in the 1000 I spent a little on that, but otherwise the play style was virtually identical.)

Also the 900 pop eff had N7 W15 P10 C13 L7 B4. Where as the 20% had N7 (W10 or W11) P10 C13 L7 B3 or there abouts.

The major difference is the 900 pop eff got it's worlds built up faster and thus had much more free resources to devote to research. Where as the other had to do a 99% tech burn one year to keep up, and it still was running at 1/2 to 3/4ths the research budget of the 900 pop eff race.

I also used two identical races, with only those two factors changed. Clearly since IS can compensate for a slightly lower growth but cannot for a slightly lower resource capacity, I'd go with the resource capacity over the increased growth rate.

The only catch is, with the points I saved on going 1000 and 20% I could raise my factories to 10/25/10, giving me yet ANOTHER 1000 resources. So I'm not sure which would be the better choice in the long run. In the short run either might be better, capture factories? Or boost overall resources? One bonus to 900 that 1000 doesn't give is increased speed in terraforming. It's not hard to get 100+ resources for terraforming with 900 so work can get done a few years sooner. Which can make a dramatic impact on the empire as a whole.


[Updated on: Mon, 10 September 2007 13:50]




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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Mon, 10 September 2007 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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Thanks, Captain Maim. Would be insightful to know what size/density galaxy you were testing.

Also not sure how a -f going from 5/25/5 to 10/25/10 gains 1000 resources. As -f, you are not building more factories. There are enough people on the HW to operate the starting 10 factories. So I only count 5 extra resource points per year. After 50 years, that is 250. And those points do not compound. So the only way you might get 1000 points is if the extra 5 points every year improves your research just enough to gain you a terriform result a year earlier than normal.

You can try the string "Altai" in the search option here to see a discussion on semi -f factory settings. Discusses capturing factories and when/if to build them.

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Mon, 10 September 2007 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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Bystander wrote on Mon, 10 September 2007 13:28

Thanks, Captain Maim. Would be insightful to know what size/density galaxy you were testing.

Also not sure how a -f going from 5/25/5 to 10/25/10 gains 1000 resources. As -f, you are not building more factories. There are enough people on the HW to operate the starting 10 factories. So I only count 5 extra resource points per year. After 50 years, that is 250. And those points do not compound. So the only way you might get 1000 points is if the extra 5 points every year improves your research just enough to gain you a terriform result a year earlier than normal.

You can try the string "Altai" in the search option here to see a discussion on semi -f factory settings. Discusses capturing factories and when/if to build them.


Map size small/dense

The 1000 resources are from captured planets, presumably pop bombed into submission. Not from the 10 little starting factories left over on your HW. For 5/25/5 I'd just say LBU or bomb the crap out of the planet and rebuild the mines afterwards, and forget about there being any captured factories. They'd only add up to 250 resources at max like you said.


With 19% PRG, 900 pop eff, my design doesn't support 10/25/10 factories... Though a 20% 1000 would.



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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Mon, 10 September 2007 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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As you mentioned, it'd be better to compare like with like. If 20% 1/1000 costs that much less points than 19% 1/900, then you need to spend those points on relevant advantages.

10/25/10 facs is not where I'd put those points... Assuming you are already happy with tech, mine and LRT settings... Then it feels natural to put them into hab, effectively extending that improvement in the PGR.

I'm a bit surprised by the difference in tech between the two races, that's quite a profound difference between them, even if the 20% is catching up... If you like playing an aggressive -f playstyle, then that early boost is quite a significant drawcard.

Incidentally... I've noticed that with 1imm, 1in5 hab, 19% growth... TT seems to also be slightly cheaper than going from 1/1000 to 1/900 pop efficiency.

Personally prefer the look of a 19% 1/1000, no TT... Those extra ~200 points look really nice in the hab screen. You can get a 1in4 or even 1in3 hab depending on LRTs... I would like to try a 20% IS one day though, just for the joy of watching those orbiting orgies multiplying at absurd speeds.

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Mon, 10 September 2007 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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One quick thought on the raw maths...

If we could maintain our growth rate perfectly (i.e. all colonies 100% hab and 25% capacity, instantaneous movement between colonies (if only...)) then at the start of 2408 the 20% 1/1000 would already have slightly more resources than the 19% 1/900 did. At 2420 it'd have 10% more resources. 2430 20% more. 2456 50% more. 2491 100% more.

Of course that is dependent on maintaining the growth rate...

But it strikes me that the 19% 1/900 is going to have to work very hard at keep it's growth rate close to optimum, to be able to compete for long. Equally, the 20% needs to take care to maintain it's growth rate too, lest it squander this expensive choice.

It might pay off to repeat your test, with the same playstyle for both - seeing the lower growth race with more worlds colonised 'red flags' your test a bit in my eyes. You'd want to use the same colonisation strategy for both, and if you build early warships ships in one, you really need to build early warships in the other too.


[Updated on: Mon, 10 September 2007 23:20]

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Tue, 11 September 2007 02:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Had a bit of a silly idea for a race... I gotta try this in a test bed some time....

IS
CE,OBRM,NAS,RS
0.21g to 8.00g (76 clicks wide)
-144^C to 200^C (76 clicks wide)
57mR to 87mR (30 clicks wide)
20% PGR
1 per 800 pop eff
5/25/5/4g facs
10/3/10 mines
Prop, weap, con cheap; el normal; en, bio exp; no start@3 (could swap el and en around by preference, but prop really wants to be cheap)

Race concept is to have both 20% AND absurd 1 per 800 pop eff... No immunes is a big call for a -f, but we're IS here, remember, the long term goal is population orgies. Those two extreme wide habs should result in some pretty decent breeders to get us started - not as good as a 1-imm would get us though. I wouldn't plan to colonise worlds on the edges of those wide habs for a fair while, that's why I don't mind having them going right to the edge, the real reason for being that wide is to make the worlds in the middle of the bands closer to perfect.

The LRTs are pretty horrible... -IFE AND -ISB AND +CE. I've mentioned before that I think IS can do pretty well without IFE or without ISB thanks to it's Fuel Xports.... And I think IS is more comfortable with CE than most since pop grows in freighters while in transit anyway... But all at once - this would be the ultimate test. We're relying on some rushed prop research to grab some decent scoops as soon as possible. With 20% PGR at homeworld and 1 per 800 it's not like we'll be hard up to find resources for researching though... The first year we should be pulling 162 resources by my estimation (haven't loaded the race into a game yet.) I think CE RADRAM Fuel Xports should be pretty impressive, (we'd be rushing for the prop 8 or prop 9 scoops for the freighters themselves though)

I gotta test bed this some time... Will it crash and burn... Probably... But it'll be novel to play.

Probably a better race, would be if I dropped to 1 per 900, widened both the wide habs to 98 clicks wide and grabbed ISB. Would probably be a better race, bu
...



[Updated on: Tue, 11 September 2007 02:51]

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Tue, 11 September 2007 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 08:44

The LRTs are pretty horrible... -IFE AND -ISB AND +CE. I've mentioned before that I think IS can do pretty well without IFE or without ISB thanks to it's Fuel Xports....

It's the -f part not the IS part that needs ISB, you will want docks to build early ships ... that or you have to grow *hard* and be able to put a large amount of pop on a world, that in combination with the 1/800 would help in putting up a SB instead of dock ...

Docks also are great on your reds ...

mch

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Tue, 11 September 2007 04:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Micha wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 17:06

Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 11 September 2007 08:44

The LRTs are pretty horrible... -IFE AND -ISB AND +CE. I've mentioned before that I think IS can do pretty well without IFE or without ISB thanks to it's Fuel Xports....

It's the -f part not the IS part that needs ISB, you will want docks to build early ships ... that or you have to grow *hard* and be able to put a large amount of pop on a world, that in combination with the 1/800 would help in putting up a SB instead of dock ...

Docks also are great on your reds ...

mch


Yeah, I agree completely with you there. Not having ISB makes a race a bit more passive, and passive isn't thematic for a -f, even a IS one. The 20% 1 in 900 version with wider habs and ISB that I mentioned as a less extreme version at the end there, is almost certainly a better race, for that reason, and it'd be easier to maintain a higher growth with the two near-max-wide habs too. But then it's 'only' 1 per 900, and I start getting tempted to slip to 1 per 1000 and 19% PGR to buy an immunity, and I'm back to a familiar design again Razz


[Updated on: Tue, 11 September 2007 04:13]

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Tue, 11 September 2007 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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Now that you mention it, there is a 3rd possible option I could take, (and I haven't tested it yet.) I could drop 900 pop eff, keep 19% and go for TT. 900 pop eff gives me what? 10% more resources? That's 10% faster terraforming. TT gives me a 30% discount on terraforming, TT should be better than 900 when it comes to terraforming yellows or reds. Just from a cursory analysis it appears to drop the terraforming time for an IS with 1 immunity significantly. I'll run it in the same seeded universe as before and see if I can't get my worlds up faster and thus have more free resources for research sooner. Which means higher tech by 50, which I'd imagine makes my race more formitable.

I've played with 1i and TT before, as I recall the terraforming was really quite effortless, but then I think I also had factories, but I'm fairly sure I didn't build them, they tend to slow down terraforming.

I'm not sure if this is 100% accurate, but doesn't mixing TT with 1i give you a 60% discount on overall terraforming? 30% less terraforming because 1 field is always perfect, and 30% less resources to terraform, equals 60% less time to terraform a planet.



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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Wed, 12 September 2007 02:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Captain Maim wrote on Wed, 12 September 2007 02:39

I'm not sure if this is 100% accurate, but doesn't mixing TT with 1i give you a 60% discount on overall terraforming? 30% less terraforming because 1 field is always perfect, and 30% less resources to terraform, equals 60% less time to terraform a planet.


The total cost of all your terraforming would be 0.7*(2/3)=0.467 - so a bit less than 47% of the usual resource investment. The effect is better than that, of course, since you've not only done the 'terraforming' in the immune field for free, you've done it up front and often to much higher levels than would've been possible..

Of course, that's why immunity doesn't come cheap (but is often worthwhile.)

I'm a bit suspicious of TT for -f races - with those wide habs and high growth rates, it's very expensive indeed. But quicker terraforming leads to higher growth, so perhaps it'll pay off still.

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Wed, 12 September 2007 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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So it's slightly less than 50% off the normal price, thanks for the math there.

I just know it gets done REALLY FAST. And I think I can get more tech if I can finish terraforming that much faster. I'm still testing it, I'll post the results after I finish. Again all 3 tests are based on slight variations of the exact same race and done in the exact same map.


[Updated on: Wed, 12 September 2007 13:22]




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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Thu, 13 September 2007 03:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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Alas, it wasn't as effective as I'd hoped, 13k and 3 less tech. (But I also did 2 full tech burns so it'd probably be like 4 or 5 less tech.) But, on the plus side it DOES have more ultimate potential than the other two designs. I've got 3.5 tech on it, and I'm wondering if I should move the .5 from energy to bio? I mean, I can trade for energy but not for bio. Not much at least. But for quick responsiveness I think I'd want energy.


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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Thu, 13 September 2007 04:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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I wouldn't take cheap bio on a -f. You're taking TT for the cheaper terraforming, not for the TT techs... So you don't need to go past bio 4. If you are planning on researching bio further before 2450, then, once again, I'd say you'd be better with a factoried race, since you'd clearly be in for the long haul. For a -f, teching bio past 3 or 4 feels like an expensive distraction from researching war techs and building ships.





[Updated on: Thu, 13 September 2007 04:12]

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Thu, 13 September 2007 04:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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I understand. I want to be able to fight early if I have to. But I also want to be able to last in the long haul.

Though, for a world that's -30% 20% and 1000 terraforms it in 28 years, 19% and 900 does it in 25years. But 19% 1000 with TT does it in 20 years! I think maybe I should go for TT instead of 900. The overall terraforming effect is better. And I made one mistake that might have contaminated my results for my test. I took 17 mines instead of 14 like my other 2 tests. I'll redo the results and see if it comes out any different. It seemed like I got more done with TT, that with the other two attributes. And I have the comfort of knowing, some distant day when I've got nothing better to do, I can get +-30%.

Plus the ramp up time is MUCH quicker with TT than with 19% and 900 or 20% and 1000.



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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Thu, 13 September 2007 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Captain Maim wrote on Thu, 13 September 2007 18:19

I understand. I want to be able to fight early if I have to. But I also want to be able to last in the long haul.


I think you have to fight early: You're -f.

20~30 years of terraforming? Hopefully you remembered to build the mines and defences first. Smile

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Re: Best way to make a -F IS Thu, 13 September 2007 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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I was starting with terraforming, the mines, I didn't build defenses.


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