Home » Primary Racial Traits » IS » Best way to make a -F IS
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Sat, 04 August 2007 14:14   |
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| velvetthroat57 wrote on Sun, 05 August 2007 04:11 |
Production occurs before battle and if your freighters are destroyed in battle, no colonists get beamed down, so I don't think they can boost production if they arrive in waypoint 1. I am not clear why they would be able to beam down at all although I do think that occurs. (I usually leave more breeding room in my tranport convoys so I don't have excess waypoint 1 pop very often but I think I have seen it happen.)
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Population growth in freighters (including overflow) occurs before production.
Here is the link to the order of events:
http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=238 6&start=0&rid=326&S=3f4f80ceacd589c25604e646ab8f b5fe
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Sat, 04 August 2007 14:23 |
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| velvetthroat57 wrote on Sun, 05 August 2007 04:05 |
I believe this is wrong. Tachyons max out at 81% cloaking effectiveness. A 98% cloaked fleet is only 80% cloaked against maxxed tachyons (0.81x0.98).
A single peerless scanner with tachyons would see a cloaked fleet at 100 lys. A nub with a stack of 3 peerless would see a cloaked fleet at 130lys. A nub with 3 peerless and 3 elephant would see a bit further plus see cloaked fleets over a planet at 50 lys.
In the end you can fit a nub with all the necessary cloaks and tachyons and still have room for two stacks of scanners (elephant and peerless). These make it impossible to sneak up on and in practice it makes the enemy avoid wasting resources on cloaking so that you actually see what is going on out to 260lys even over planets.
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Yes, my bad, I think you are right. I'll adjust my original post, don't want to leave bad info out there
But still. We shouldn't really be assuming peerless scanners anyway - it's el24. A stack of three Eagle eye scanners gets us 440ly, about 88ly then against a max cloaked fleet. Still short of the magic 100ly, and expensive to form a network of scanners to watch a whole border. Same ship with NAS scans 176ly, so my point still stands. A ship with five Eagle eyes can see 100ly though... But again, we need high tech for this - nubians to get max tachyons, so even this much is only possible with con26. NAS is definately still usefull for IS.
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Sat, 04 August 2007 19:20 |
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I found 1 in 5 to be quite generous in planet number and quality. I personally like going with temp immune that way my two useful terrafroming directions are cheap. I tech to the sub galactic fuel scoop instead of the rad, I save the rad for cheap early warships and perhaps even scouts.
I'm still testing to see if 900 pop eff is better than 20% PGR.
The technique of colonizing worlds that I'll eventually use was GREAT! By the time they turned yellow they had like 4 or 5% left on them! Thanks! I'll make that a standard practice from now on.
About what year should I start creating freighters for a pop fountain?
I've found that since I don't usually catch the population soon enough with freighters that I build several PVT's with 3 cargo pods and whatever engine I've got. Usually they don't go anywhere and I name them "Capacitor", and store my overflow in that fleet until I've got larger freighters. So far it's generally just boasted my HW pop growth to like ~75,000 per year.
Edit: I hadn't noticed the 2nd page so my comments are a little behind the conversation.
[Updated on: Sun, 05 August 2007 04:39]
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Sun, 05 August 2007 04:39 |
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I see.
I regularly triple pop my reds or yellows at 165,000 pop or more, more like 180,000 just so I don't have to worry about them for 10 or 15 years before putting more pop on them. Holding at 5% is silly, since tripling the 5% red capacity is easy and with OBRM and 1000 pop eff you get 110 pop only resources per red. Which means you can terraform at 1% per year, or there abouts.
I only say this cause some time back I recall someone saying he only puts 50,000 or 55,000 on his reds/yellows. I always put the maximum I can on them, and as they mature into greens I pile more pop on them so they're running at peak efficiency for further terraforming.
Thanks for the tip on not starting the orgies until the pop starts to backwash. That's about what I figured. Though I usually keep a small one at my HW, just to boost my growth beyond 20%.
I didn't know that I could get double growth if I filled the freighters.. I noticed I had more people, but I didn't know that was the reason. When I did my benchmarks of 31 years, I didn't use that method, just let them grow in space and added the overflow from a 50% HW to the space growth. I think that took about 26 years or something close to the advertised prize to mature 12 SF's with no cargo pods.
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Sun, 05 August 2007 19:28 |
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Yes, overpopping reds is nice, because you just suffer population loss based on the inhabitability, not from overcrowding - and this is often less than you would by overpopping a green. And that's before you even consider the advantage of turning a world green in half the time (and thus being able to start growing population...)
Once my breeders are at ~33% I wouldn't hesitate to overpop the yellows. Good yellows I'd overpop even sooner.
[Updated on: Sun, 05 August 2007 19:29] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Sun, 05 August 2007 20:11 |
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It also gives you a nice jumpstart on pop when they DO go green.
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Mon, 06 August 2007 22:23 |
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| Soobie wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:56 |
... yes, like in my current game when I had 165K of pop on the ground, and it turned green at 7% so I started losing even MORE pop because of overcrowding deaths instead of hab death. Must've been one helluva concert to kill all those tourists. 
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Which leads to another couple of tips...
You'll probably just sit on those population losses and overpop the 7% anyway, to develop it faster, so no big problem.
When terraforming a red / yellow that you expect will experience this problem (where you'll suffer greater losses without getting greater resources in return, while you get a bit of green-terraforming done), then push a few near-complete terraforms to the back of the queue. When you have enough of these saved up to squeeze through the 'hump', put them back to the front of the queue and jump through those dangerous years all at once. A bit of extra MM... Won't really save you much either (a few thousand population, maybe.) But fun for the MM addicts, on the rare, rare occaisions this might actually help.
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| Re: Where do you hold |
Wed, 08 August 2007 22:37 |
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 velvetthroat57 |
 | Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 111
Registered: June 2005 | |
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| joseph wrote on Wed, 08 August 2007 17:56 |
The 33% Vs 50% hold debate. At 50% you get 34% more resources (500 Vs 330) and (using a 100% world for comparison) at 33% you would get 23% more pop (770 Vs 600). So on high % cap worlds the next thing is to let them rise to 50%. This gives the best increase in resources for decrease in pop growth ratio.
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I agree with letting high hab worlds go to 50% capacity before starting orgies but I don't think it gives "the best increase in resources for decrease in pop." I do it because I don't want my empire to fall behind while the orgy grows but if you are assured a couple decades of peace, I think a hold at 35% on a 100% world (wirh 20% PGR) actually gives the best resource integral, that is it prodices the most resources on the planet while creating enough people to transition to 300% capacity plus maintenance orgy.
It is complicated to determine the optimal hold level. It actually depends on both the PGR of the race (which doesn't change for a given game admittedly) and the habitability of the world (which should improve over the years). For example, a 20% PGR race with a 90% world would maximize resources with a 30% capacity hold level, but a 19% PGR race would do better with a 32% hold level.
The lower the hab, the lower the optimal hold level. By the time you get down to 70% hab, the optimal hold level is down to 25% and you are just maximizing pop growth.
The problem is that leaving most of your empire are 25%, even though it makes more resources long term, leaves you with almost no resources for anything else since the planets generate only half as many resources as they do at 50% and many of those reduced resources are spent building ships in order to keep the planets underutilized. So I bite the bullet and accept suboptimal growth of BOTH population and resources in exchange for a steady flow of resources now to keep me current with other races.
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| Re: Where do you hold |
Thu, 09 August 2007 11:31 |
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| joseph |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol | |
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Ah you misunderstand me. Assuming you have perfect pop balancing skills and all of your planets have just been filled to 30% at the same time.
At this point any increase in resources that you want can only be done at the expense of population growth (and yes you are right on lower hab worlds you will have made a small sacrifice in pop growth to get from 25%-30% cap as opposed to sticking the pop in orbit).
You need to increase your resources! So we are looking for the cheapest way (in terms of pop growth reduction) to do this.
The cheapest way is to let your best worlds go to 50%.
Compare
by the way I have simplified my numbers slightly AND I have not considered overpoping (makes the maths much more complicated!).
(A 50%Hab world produces 150Kt of pop at 1500pop/30%CAP and it produces the same at 2500/50%CAP)
Starting from 30CAP
If you rise to then hold the 50% Cap world at 2500/50%CAP it takes about 19 years before you can drop obital pop and fill to 100CAP - Resources produced in the 19 years = 4425
If you hold the 50% Cap world at 1500/30%CAP it takes about 14 years before you can drop obital pop and fill to 100%CAP - Resources produced in the 19 years = 4600
However
If you hold the 50% Cap world at 1500/30%CAP -Until you have 1200kT of pop in orbit then - rise to then hold the world at 2500/50%CAP
it takes about 16 years before you can drop obital pop and fill to 100%CAP - Resources produced in the 19 years = 4765
(A 100%Hab world produces 600Kt of pop at 3000pop/30%CAP and it produces the same at 5000/50%CAP)
If you rise to then hold the 100% Cap world at 5000/50%CAP it takes about 10 years before you can drop obital pop and fill to 100%CAP - Resources produced in the 10 years = 5060
If you hold the 100% Cap world at 3000/30%CAP it takes about 8 years before you can drop obital pop and fill to 100%CAP - Resources produced in the 10 years = 4700
However
If you hold the 50% Cap world at 3000/30%CAP -Until you have 2000kT of pop in orbit then - rise to then hold the world
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[Updated on: Fri, 10 August 2007 04:24]
Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 09 August 2007 19:33 |
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I barely understood a word you just said. What does "3000/30ĘP" mean? I couldn't interpret any of those. The only thing that made any sense to me was the last part about putting pop in orbit over a 50% cap world.
Me, I usually just breed from the breeders and export to the lower worlds until I fill them to 100% of their capacity to maximize their resources. Well, I can overpop and squeeze out more but I've only been playing from 0 to 50, over popping is 50 to year 100.
Anyway, I use say 2000kt in orbit over my breeders (or more) to boost their growth beyond 20%. So I can export more to the lesser worlds. I suppose when that was done I'd build up orgies over the breeders and split them off as needed to over pop the lesser worlds.
Question: How do I calculate how many pop I need to properly hold a world at 300%? What's the over populating death rate? How does it work? That's something I've been really interested to know so I can compensate for it.
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 09 August 2007 20:29 |
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| Soobie |
 | Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
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On 200% overpop, you will have overcrowding deaths of 8%.
On 100% overpop you will have overcrowding deaths of 4% of the total pop, with deaths not taking you below 100% capacity (eg: if you have 1,120,000 you won't drop below 1,100,000).
On a 3.3mil, 100% hab world, this is about 264K per year. I say "about" because there is seems to be some rounding error.
Your PGR will determine how many to have in flight.
20% PGR = 10% orbital growth = 2,640,000 in orbit. You can calculate 19% and 18%, I'm sure 
Oh, OK ... for 19% its 2,779,000 and for 18% its 2,933,300.
Crowding deaths come after ship overflow so pop on ground is around 3.036mil and orbitals drop 264K. Then you get production. Then 264K of your people die in starving, screaming agony. Again, rounding changes this slightly. I find my pop tends to grow by about 200~300 per turn 
Also, to add my 2 cents, I find holding pop at 31.8%, 33.3%, 34.99% or 42.4% for 20% PGR with OBRM and lifting pop until orbital is at 2,640,000, then overflowing until ground pop = 100% full (ie: 1,100,000) then letting the Orbi grow to the needed ~4.5mil and then dropping it all to give 200% overpop all give *roughly* the same resouces (give or take), and do better than others. In exchange, you lose a year to fill, but the difference is more than 2,200 res in favour of those that constantly lift the whole time.
((Granted those *bonus* resources come in the last 8 years, not the first years, when they're most useful. I also find that most of my worlds are sitting at around the 50% mark when I decide to start the process, and that I "seed" the orbitals, by stripping the planets back to ~42.4% - but not doing ALL planets at once - this speeds things up by about 1~2 years ... which is a nice offset for the year lost above ...))
I also find this works well with <100% hab worlds, as the CAGR of the non-100% world is invariably more terrible above 25% than the orbital growth. With less than 100% worlds I tend to hold them at 25% fo
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| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 09 August 2007 20:52 |
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| mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Captain Maim wrote on Thu, 09 August 2007 18:33 |
Question: How do I calculate how many pop I need to properly hold a world at 300%? What's the over populating death rate? How does it work? That's something I've been really interested to know so I can compensate for it.
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Death rate is 0.04% per % point over 100% cap. Thus a 200% cap planet is 100% over, and has a (0.04 * 100 = 4%) a 4% death rate. This maxes out at 400% capacity with a 12% death rate. There are a few reasons to have your pop higher than 300%, even though you gain no resources past 300%. You might be protecting a planet against pop drops or packets etc, otherwise there is no real need for it.
note -Peeps work at 50% past the 100% Cap
The Formula ends up being a little weird, because you drop pop on step 7 of the order of events, then production happens on step 12, then pop grows/dies on step 14. So, you never see your planet "fully at 300%". Now, I am no math wizard, but I put together a crappy spreadsheet I attached to my Posey sheet, and this is the formula I used. It might be wrong as I can't remember how far I got...but this is how I did it.
Formula for colonists in orbit would be
((A*B*C)/5000)*D/E
A = Desired capacity (300% = 300)
B = Planet value ( 88% = 88)
C = Max pop of a 100% world (1,000,000 or 1,100,000)
D = Colonist death rate MIN((A-100)*0.04,12)
E = Race growth rate (19% = 19)
Round off the 2 digits left of the decimal, and add '100' to the total.
My actual formula in the excel sheet
=ROUND((((C9*C8*C11)/5000)*C15/C10),-2)+100
Good luck!
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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