Home » Primary Racial Traits » IS » Best way to make a -F IS
| Best way to make a -F IS |
Tue, 31 July 2007 22:05  |
|
|
|
I'm looking for the best way to make and play a -F IS race. I only know how to run HP and HG races, and I'm aware that a -F IS is different than a -F anything else. Could someone explain to me how this could best be done?
Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Wed, 01 August 2007 01:10  |
|
|
|
First up, for IS -f, don't even consider anything less than 19% or 20% PGR.
Consider taking one immunity as well. It'll help with finding breeders for the initial population surge. For -f in general, 1i is usually pretty mandatory and 2i interesting. For IS though, it's better to get the best growth rate you can, for those freighters, and you are more tolerant of not-so-good worlds... So I'd take 1i, or if you want 20% and a lot of worlds, consider no immune. No immune will ramp up a bit slower in practice, but it will be *masssive* later on. IS -f is odd, in that you don't have to play it quite as aggressively as a normal -f as you will not weaken as fast thanks to your ability to really exploit what you have.
I'd definately take ISB, as I would with any -f. If you don't, it really hurts your early attacks, since your resources initially spread thinly over many worlds (as IS, later your worlds will individually be quite respectible, with a decent overpop.)
You don't need IFE, but it would be nice, as you'll be building lots of freighters - nice for them not to be engine-obselete too quick. But with the fuel transport, and probably with ISB, it's not critical.
If it's a no-immune, you should take TT - terraforming is a real pain for -f races - you are in a hurry to fight, but you need to terraform to maintain growth.. Ouch. If it's a one immune, TT will probably be too expensive to justify.
OBRM is a no brainer. Definately take it.
RS same for all the usual reasons, plus croby.
3 or 3.5 cheap is wise. Weapons and Con cheap... The rest depending on your strategy and what LRTs you took. Bear in mind you will want some en early for croby, and if you didn't take IFE you'll definately want to push in prop. I can imagine a 2 cheap design working ok, but I'm not sure the extra points could be put to good enough use.
10/3/10 to 10/3/14 mines is about right. You probably won't build past the ~8 per 10,000 pop mark until mid game though - too busy researching and building ships. You'll want more capac
...
[Updated on: Wed, 01 August 2007 01:17] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Wed, 01 August 2007 02:31 |
|
|
|
yeah actually...
I've been doing what i do with an HG and it's been... difficult, I started scouting at year 9 or 12. But I'll start doing it from year 1.
I have another question, what sort of economic benchmarks should I look for? Or even a good tech benchmark to look for?
Should I build mines as needed instead of all at once? I'm using 16 mines instead of 14, I was going to go with 25 but after reading your post I dropped that down from 25 to 16 and boasted my PGR to 20%.
I'm also considering using a 2 wide 1 narrow with TT race that can eventually live anywhere. The only thing I'm worried about is being a target for others since my habs are centered.
Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Wed, 01 August 2007 03:57 |
|
| Soobie |
 | Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
|
| Dogthinkers wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 14:40 |
... I'd definately take ISB, as I would with any -f. If you don't, it really hurts your early attacks, since your resources initially spread thinly over many worlds (as IS, later your worlds will individually be quite respectible, with a decent overpop.)
You don't need IFE, but it would be nice, as you'll be building lots of freighters - nice for them not to be engine-obselete too quick. But with the fuel transport, and probably with ISB, it's not critical.
...
|
This is sooo completely true.
I've played a 20% -f IS with IFE and not ISB. By 2424 had 4 built out Space stations and about 8 gated orbital forts and a couple of dozen reasonably high pop worlds and a lot of FF coming out each year. It was in a duel of sorts but because of some quirks, while this race was doing very nicely, because of the game structure it was clear that in the long run I was going to lose. Unfortunately I had to quit before it played out but I'm fairly certain I was going to lose.
+IFE -ISB was a mistake. While IS-f can cope quite well without ISB, I should have taken ISB and not IFE. The sacrifice in numbers of early Croby FF to get those starbases PLUS the need to constantly move mins to a limited number of shipbuilding worlds PLUS having to hold too much pop too early for a -f on those worlds to justify the high production needed for so few worlds was clearly sacrificing late game potential.
Importantly, even though I had IFE and prop expensive, I had Prop @ 6 and was pushing towards Prop 9 and my Croby FFs tended to have DDL for battle board speed after some early problems with FM made me abandon that engine.
Compare this to the time I had -f 20% PGR, 1/900(!),3.0 cheap with ISB and no IFE with prop normal. By 2422 I had tech 7/8/9/8/1/4. With Prop 9 I was into my second generation crobys and LFs with TGFS with only a couple of dozen earlier DDL7 FFs for defence and only a few QJ5(I'm a scrooge!) LFs with about 300K pop for a starting orgy. I had 2 well-built space
...
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Wed, 01 August 2007 10:50 |
|
 velvetthroat57 |
 | Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 111
Registered: June 2005 | |
|
-f IS is probably my favorite race. It has all the advantages of -f without the 1100 resource/world limitation of the others. You can expand aggressively like any other -f but when the endgame comes, you don't fade away from the lack of factories.
Definitely take an immunity.
I would take IFE rather than ISB but as others have said, you don't need both. The fuel transport can make up for one or the other early on.
Seriously consider 1/900 pop efficiency. It is expensive but it does two things I like. One, the extra pop efficiency adds 11% to your population resources. Since your entire economy is pop based, this means it adds 11% to your economy. For a factory based race this would add maybe 4% to their economy. A perfect world will give you 2444 resources which is not bad for not building a single factory! Two, it eases the burden of ship building during initial expansion. If you are running lean and keeping the HW at 25-32%, the extra resources allow you to make enough ships to keep firing off expeditions. At 1/1000, I frequently have to hold off for a year until I can finish building ships.
To help pay for 1/900, you might consider 19% PGR. This slows the arrival of orgies by a few years but it is still pretty fast and you get there in the end. Basically, you are trading a delay in reaching your peak resources for 11% more resources when you get there.
Consider not taking NAS. You will have tachyons which means the doubled scan range isn't needed to detect cloaked fleets. A cloaked tachyon nub with a stack of elephant scanners is great for your peace of mind.
The other half of making a -f IS work is not in the design but the playstyle.
Step one is to expand as quickly and aggressively as possible. Between the 2x defense bonus once you have landed and the minigun destroyers you can deploy almost immediately, nobody beats you in the early game and you should play like it. As soon as you run out of room to expand, you want to fill up your own space at least at the border to p
...
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Wed, 01 August 2007 12:34 |
|
|
|
| Captain Maim wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 16:31 |
Should I build mines as needed instead of all at once? I'm using 16 mines instead of 14, I was going to go with 25 but after reading your post I dropped that down from 25 to 16 and boasted my PGR to 20%.
I'm also considering using a 2 wide 1 narrow with TT race that can eventually live anywhere. The only thing I'm worried about is being a target for others since my habs are centered.
|
Yeah, 25 mines would've been crazy. You couldn't have spent the minerals, and wouldn't be able to justify building that many mines.
16 isn't excessive, but you won't want to build more than about 8-10 of those except at the best mining worlds, until the mid-late game. I'd drop a little to get better hab, myself.
Yeah, 1i does have the benefit that it means you usually end up with a narrow field, which is often good for diplomacy as well as for terraforming. I think it's the way to go. But if any -f can get away with 3-wide, it'll be IS 
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 02 August 2007 01:37 |
|
|
|
What are good habs for a -f IS 1i? 1 in 6? 1 in 5? 1 in 4? or more?
Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 02 August 2007 03:11 |
|
|
|
I've considered 900 pop efficency, it brings in a little more resources, and it can drop 2 years off terraforming a -22% world (from 20 to 18). The only problem I had with it is I lost 20%. I found that the time it took to grow 12 super freighters full and pull the pop up to 3.3 million (gleaming from 550,000 pop growth) was 31 years with 20% and with 19% it was 46 years! That's a WHOLE lot greater difference than a couple years off terraforming time. I think 20% is more important than 900 pop.
Though to get both with 1 immune I'd have to take NAS, and as someone pointed out the TD's make taking NAS less important. Plus I promised myself the game I'm in is the LAST time I take NAS (Everyone took NAS! So only 1 SS has any tradable pens.) But NAS or no NAS is another thread entirely I think.
Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 02 August 2007 07:32 |
|
| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1204
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
|
Hi!
| Quote: |
It has all the advantages of -f without the 1100 resource/world limitation of the others. You can expand aggressively like any other -f but when the endgame comes, you don't fade away from the lack of factories.
|
Ermmmmm, but you need in orbit of every planet a fleet of ~4M pop, to keep that planet at 3.3M to get the full overpop resources. Just on 10 planets you have 40M pop. That's a decent orgy that could take 1 planet per turn! If you need to use the flying orgy for overpop instead of planet-taking, IMO you don't play the -f right.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Thu, 02 August 2007 07:33] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 02 August 2007 07:42 |
|
| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1204
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
|
Hi!
| Captain Maim wrote on Thu, 02 August 2007 07:37 |
What are good habs for a -f IS 1i? 1 in 6? 1 in 5? 1 in 4? or more?
|
1 narrow (~40 clicks) and shifted left/right, 1 wide (~60 clicks) mostly centered, 1 immune is my usuall hab scheme for a -f. Gives about 1 in 4 hab at start, 2 in 3 with 15% terra.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Thu, 02 August 2007 07:46] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | | |
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 02 August 2007 19:42 |
|
|
|
What's the process for this 25 year build up.
I may have made a mistake when doing the 19%, I think most of the time was spent waiting for the planet to fill up using only 12 super freighters with no cargo pods. 20% did it in 31 years 19% took much longer with the same load to reach 3.3M that's why it was 46 or so. It might have been a little less but it was still in the 40's. 900 pop eff does mean you get as many resources as a race with 10/x/14 factories (if no OBRM) and that's a nice load.
I don't think it's economical to have a race with both 20% and 900 pop eff though.
Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Thu, 02 August 2007 21:23 |
|
| Soobie |
| Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
|
| Captain Maim wrote on Fri, 03 August 2007 09:12 |
I don't think it's economical to have a race with both 20% and 900 pop eff though.
|
It's not quite that good, since an IS HG and high PGR non-IS can overpop too but yeah, I think most peeps agree with you.
But having the equivalent of a hard to kill/mobile 11/x/13 econ, no fac building costs, no germ shortage, 2.5 or 3.0 cheap tech, a highly mobile pop drop army keeping bomber costs down and resources available for quite nasty early ship building has a lot to be said for it.
If you take 20% and 1/900, you'll take probably take NAS and 1imm with 1in7 hab. So it also depends on how highly you rate penscanners and wide hab.
Hab: 1in7 hab gives easy big greens with minimal terraforming (1in10 if you take IFE and ISB, but not NRSE). The 1imm means they're not completely awful at the get go (like 2% :S)and each click of terra gives ~2%. Do you really need to be able to have 100% end game hab coverage with lots of 50% and 60% planets, when you can end up with 1in3/1in4 which are pretty much all 85%+ and have intersettled without too much stress in the run up and can actually make use of the reds?
NAS: SS (or anyone) sending in skirmishers/freighter killers to take out multiple orgies before you have Tachys might hurt. Having NAS isn't necessarily completely wasted on IS in the early/mid game as long as you also have plenty of spare chaff watching for planet hoppers.
My 2c.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Fri, 03 August 2007 02:58 |
|
|
|
| iztok wrote on Thu, 02 August 2007 22:59 |
Hi!
Looks like I understood you wrong that you held planet at 550k while filling freighters to sum of 3.3M pop. What you wanted to do was a stable 3.3M pop on a planet. Waiting for it with just 12 SFs in orbit really takes quite a long time. IMO better approach would be to build an orgy of ~6M in orbit, and then drop 2.3M on the alrady pop-maxxed planet. The remaining orgy in orbit would then replenish the 11% die-offs. Filling the spreadsheet with theese data I get 3 years difference between 19% and 20% growth, but I've been "lifting" 50k pop from planet for 19 turns!
BR, Iztok
|
See! Now THIS is the kind of stuff I need to know. Should I collect pop from as many planets as I can to create this super pop fountain of 6M and then use it to kick start other planets? Or is this 6M on each planet done separately?
I only used 12 SF because I was looking for the minimum holding pop. Can a -F actually survive at 1 in 6 or 1 in 7? At 1 in 6 I found I was spread mightly thin for a econ type that requires a lot of planets. 900 pop eff WOULD decrease my terraforming time which is good since 20% means nothing on a yellow or a red.
Should I colonize red worlds that I can terraform later or colonize them when they turn yellow? I've been doing the latter and I've been considering doing the former. Hmm... Maybe the 900 eff would be better... <thinking...>
1 in 5 seemed pretty friendly, not too far to go for several heavy greens.
Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Fri, 03 August 2007 19:36 |
|
|
|
Which is better, sending out a transport on an X year journey with enough pop to fill up in X-1 years? Or enough pop to fill up in X years?
Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Sat, 04 August 2007 12:59 |
|
|
|
| Skaffen wrote on Sun, 05 August 2007 02:52 |
X, overflow pop will be beamed down to the planet in the year you arrive so the growth is not lost.
|
So that'd be a desire to fill in X-1, so the freighter is full the year before it arrives, so it overflows on arrival (boosting production) 
[Updated on: Sat, 04 August 2007 12:59] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Best way to make a -F IS |
Sat, 04 August 2007 13:13 |
|
|
|
| Soobie wrote on Fri, 03 August 2007 11:23 |
Hab: 1in7 hab gives easy big greens with minimal terraforming (1in10 if you take IFE and ISB, but not NRSE). The 1imm means they're not completely awful at the get go (like 2% :S)and each click of terra gives ~2%. Do you really need to be able to have 100% end game hab coverage with lots of 50% and 60% planets, when you can end up with 1in3/1in4 which are pretty much all 85%+ and have intersettled without too much stress in the run up and can actually make use of the reds?
|
All those 50 and 60% planets you mention, are in addition to the worlds you'd have gotten with narrow hab. I'd rather a 50% than a red, for sure. More importantly, all the worlds you would have got with a narrower hab will all be better, both before and after terraforming (except the perfect worlds, of course.)
The only drawback to wider habs, is the points cost.
For a -f I usually go for about 1in4 to 1in5, with one narrow hab - often close to the minimum width, to get the most out of the first clicks of terraforming - and with one wide or very wide.
Here's a sample race, for fun. Feel free to rip it apart
IS (duh)
ISB, OBRM, NAS, RS
1.04g to 2.00g (24 clicks wide)
-140^ to 140^ (70 clicks wide)
Rad immune
20% PGR, 1in5 (only one click in grav off 1in4)
1/1000
5/25/5/4g
10/3/12
weap, con, prop all cheap
el normal
en and bio expensive
Designing this race, I made a choice ot use scoops, since I don't use them often, and also to use 20% growth, since I haven't used it with -f before. Since I'm using scoops, I'm going to skip IFE and rush for the radram instead. Hence rad immune. Grav is narrowest, to complement the prop research we'll be doing. I let el be normal instead of en, since I want tachyons to be accesible, and with temp so wide we probably won't be terraforming it until mid-late game anyway (this is a -f remember, we plan to fight,) instead focusing on our highly efficient (per click) grav terra. Drawback here, is that I won't be able to rush for en7 for croby so ea
...
[Updated on: Sat, 04 August 2007 14:25] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed Apr 24 00:26:17 EDT 2024
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
