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IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 11:48 Go to next message
Fenrir is currently offline Fenrir

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 16
Registered: June 2007

I'm just getting re-accquainted with Stars! and have drawn this up:

IT
IFE, OBRM, NAS, RS (GR?)
.33 to 6.8 / -128 to 176 / 26 to 100
1 in 2 hab
18%
2500/1 resource
12/9/12 checked
10/3/12 <---- advice here?
Weapons, Propulsion, Construction cheap
Bio expensive

This works fairly well, but I'd like to make it better. maybe faster at start up. I mostly have problems shipping colonists from HW to new planets. That might just be a skill issue, but advice/comments are appreciated.






Don't be afraid to point me in the right direction. ~^.^~

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
I'm not sure the IFE is a good fit for IT since most of your movement will be relatively short distances from your gates. Perhaps replace IFE with ISB and NRSE; ISB because you need to build orbitals quickly, something the 20% savings helps with, and the SD gives you the ability to quickly start building things as well as better resist destruction in the early game, and NRSE for the points and the speed (both movement and battle) of the Interspace-10 at Prop 11. Definitely take RS.

With a 1 in 2 Hab you should consider OBRM to get the points and the increased pop/growth rate. IT generally likes remote mining because they can gate the massive RMs, but at this hab RM is not an issue unless you degrade your mines for the RW points, something I don't recomend. The hab is also overly right shifted, your Rad gives no room for terra to the right; you can still get 1 in 2 with: .29-6.32/-132-172/19-93 and have good terra on both sides of each variable, but I might go with: .21-3,68/-148-132/22-90, which still gives you 1 in 2, but gives better RW points and better bell curve positions for Grav and Temp (Rad is not bell curved). I like the PGR.

Since you must ramp up your infrastructure quickly I'd change the econ settings to:
2500/1
12/8/15 checked
12/3/15 (the wisdom is to generally keep the mine effeciency at 10 and increase the number of mines, but I like a high effiency mining system AND lots of mines Very Happy )

The tech I would take Weap, Con, and En cheap, and El and Bio expensive. Plan to trade for the El.

This should start a little faster for you since the factories are cheaper and the mines more efficient, plus you'll get gates up faster with the ISB so you'll be able to expand faster.



[Updated on: Wed, 27 June 2007 13:21]

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 111
Registered: June 2005
Fenrir wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 11:48

I'm just getting re-accquainted with Stars! and have drawn this up:

IT
IFE, OBRM, NAS, RS (GR?)
.33 to 6.8 / -128 to 176 / 26 to 100
1 in 2 hab
18%
2500/1 resource
12/9/12 checked
10/3/12 <---- advice here?
Weapons, Propulsion, Construction cheap
Bio expensive



What is it you want this race to do? My initial thought is that your pop is weak for an HG and your factories are weak for an HP. That isn't a good combination since it gives you the worst of both worlds. That is, your ramp up time is too long since your pop is weak at generating resources on its own and you don't get the great factory compounding HPs need.

Other observations:

(1) You have 4 cheap fields (3 cheap and 2 normal). That is expensive and should be reduced to 3.5 cheap. That gains you 130 RW points.

(2) Wide habs but no immunity will mean lots of little greens. If you want to expand quickly, you need breeders and they are much easier to find and improve if you have an immunity. You might try temp immune and energy research expensive.


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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fenrir is currently offline Fenrir

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 16
Registered: June 2007

I've looked over your advice and have come up with this:

IT
OBRM, NAS, RS
.29 to 3.92 / Temp Immune / 23, to 83
15%
2500/1
11/8/15 checked
11/3/15
Weapons cheap
Bio and Electronics expensive.

I dunno if it was worth it for the immunity, but I do notice a lot more high value planets nearby. about 6 50% plus within 200 ly. of either starting world in a normal density map. is that a good amount?


[Updated on: Wed, 27 June 2007 15:43]




Don't be afraid to point me in the right direction. ~^.^~

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
Fenrir wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 21:39

IT
OBRM, NAS, RS
.29 to 3.92 / Temp Immune / 23, to 83
15%
2500/1
11/8/15 checked
11/3/15
Weapons cheap
Bio and Electronics expensive.


Growth is really low, I would not go below 17% ...
With 1/2500 cols you need a lot and strong factories, your pop is too weak to produce a good number of resources. About an absolute minimum would be like 12/x/18 (don't pin me on that number Wink ) along with mines better than 11/3/18 ... probably higher efficiency and less mines since HPs go for the long run ... 14/3/15 or so ... (this is more expensive)
Also HPs can live with only one cheap tech field and the rest expensive ... IOW weap cheap, rest +75% ...
I would recommend start at 3 for about any HP except JoaT and IT.

mch

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 29
Registered: May 2007
Location: California

velvetthroat57 wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 10:27

What is it you want this race to do?

What a great question!

The answer to that question really is they key. I think it was Micha who suggested that in your initial design your colonists are too inefficient to be an HG and the factories are two low to be an HP. HGs grow fairly quickly and can be aggressive early (not as fast as a true QS or -f, but they are still early enough). HPs grow slowly and require a decent amount of diplomacy to get to the point where their resource curve really kicks in.

It's going to be hard for folks to give you meaningful advice without knowing how you'd like to play this race. If you want to be the diplomactic mister nicy-nice until 2475 or if you want to intersettle with a neighbor and beat up on someone together...knowing that will dictate a lot of the changes folks suggest.

I know this isn't directly helping your race design here and apologies for waxing philisophical, but there are two approaches to race design. You either pick a design (e.g. HG, HP, QS, -f), figure out how you want to play it then tweak the design accordingly or you think about the kind of game you want to have first, then you choose the design and tweak accordingly. I used to do it the first way, but now that I'm actually playing real opponents I think going about it the second way is most effective.

That said, I'm relatively new to this so I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of our more seasoned veterans.

Cheers,
Thor

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Thor wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 13:59


SNIP
You either pick a design (e.g. HG, HP, QS, -f), figure out how you want to play it then tweak the design accordingly or you think about the kind of game you want to have first, then you choose the design and tweak accordingly. I used to do it the first way, but now that I'm actually playing real opponents I think going about it the second way is most effective.
SNIP


I strongly agree with you that it is best to start with the game context, then think about how you want to play, and then start to design your race.

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fenrir is currently offline Fenrir

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 16
Registered: June 2007

Well, I was looking for a race that could progress technologically fairly quickly with a wide hab range.

I chose IT because of their ability to move around fairly quickly and the starting tech in Propulsion and Construction.

I have mostly played against computer opponents, and only gotten 50 turns or so into some MP games with friends, so I generally go for a quick, defensive hold on as many planets as possible. I suppose that would translate to diplomatic type of play.

The game context currently is a 3-4 player match on an uncertain map setup.



Don't be afraid to point me in the right direction. ~^.^~

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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Location: MN, USA
Micha wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 15:14



Growth is really low, I would not go below 17% ...



Yea, I agree with that, even though lower will work in larger universes. Which brings up the questions:

* What size universe
* What is the density
* How many players
* What are the rules that might effect this race (No allies, no chaff etc..)
* What is your play style
* Victory conditions

All of this can effect race design.

Here is a HP race that was designed for a Huge Dense. It was my only serious competition in a particular game.

SD
IFE NRSE OBRM LSP
.31g <-> 3.68g
-116c <-> 124c
21mR <-> 81mR
15%
1/2500 15/7/25 yes 17/5/12
All Expensive
Start at 3 checked

The low growth seemed fine with max econ. Pretty wide hab, with 1 in 4. His tech lagged behind mine, but HP's have that issue. If he would have waited for Nubs, before attacking me, he might have done much better. The amount of Arm BB's he produced was staggering.

I might be inclined to tweak it some, but it performed very well for that universe.

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
Thor wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 22:59

velvetthroat57 wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 10:27

What is it you want this race to do?

What a great question!

The answer to that question really is they key. I think it was Micha who suggested that in your initial design your colonists are too inefficient to be an HG and the factories are two low to be an HP.

That would have been velvetthroat57, not me. Wink And it would be the sentence right after the one you are quoting. Wink

velvetthroat57 wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 10:27

My initial thought is that your pop is weak for an HG and your factories are weak for an HP. That isn't a good combination since it gives you the worst of both worlds. That is, your ramp up time is too long since your pop is weak at generating resources on its own and you don't get the great factory compounding HPs need.

Worst of both worlds indeed. And asking *what* one wants the race to do *is* an good question!

mch

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 29
Registered: May 2007
Location: California

Micha wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 14:45

That would have been velvetthroat57, not me. Wink And it would be the sentence right after the one you are quoting. Wink

Woops - right you are, sir! I knew I should have taken the time to extract the exact quote. Apologies to velvetthroat57 for not giving credit to you and also to Micha for putting words in your mouth.

Micha wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 14:45

Worst of both worlds indeed. And asking *what* one wants the race to do *is* an good question!

Whew - glad to hear I got something right on this post. Smile

Cheers,
Thor

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fenrir is currently offline Fenrir

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 16
Registered: June 2007

Well, as far as allies, I'll probably be getting ganged up on by 2 other people and be on my own.

Pretty much a no-rules encounter overall.

I'm gonna guess a medium or large map with normal density.

Mebbe this should be moved to the acadamy since it's not about IT specifically, although I am still set on that PRT.



Don't be afraid to point me in the right direction. ~^.^~

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 111
Registered: June 2005
Yeah that was my great question! Cool

Now that we have acknowledged my greatness, lets move on to discussing the benefits of CE for an IT. Isn't that a great LRT? Not only half priced engines but it gives RW points!

(Side Note: I would recommend against ISB for ITs but the 1/2500 pop efficiency might necessitate that.)

Here is an example of an HG-lite race that I might play, especially if I want a fast start and think I might end up in an early war:

IT
CE, OBRM, NAS, RS
0.33g-0.73g, -120C-120C, immune
19%
1/1000
12/9/12, no g, 11/3/13
Weap cheap, rest exp, exp starts at 3.

Upside
(1) This race starts with the Radiating Ram engine and since it is rad immune, that will be the principal engine the race uses for the first 50 years.

(2) It also starts with high gravity terraforming (+7) and that is the main field it needs to terraform to improve its planets.

(3) The low grav band gives it a shot at intersettling with neighbors and avoiding an early bloodbath.

Downside
(a) Not as many factories operated as a true HG.
(b) Expensive tech which helps get out of the gate fast will require assistance to finish research in a timely manner.

This race can manage 50k by 2450 in real games but even so it will want an ally. Preferably one with pen scanners.

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 29
Registered: May 2007
Location: California

velvetthroat57 wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 15:43

Weap cheap, rest exp, exp starts at 3.


I'm trying to understand this part. What is it, specifically, you're looking to get with the exp starts at three?

You already have Prop 7 and Const 5 and you won't get anything for weapons since it's cheap. That leaves energy and bio, and I can't think of anything there worth 60 RW points there; and elec. Now, elec is nice because it gives you something better than the bat scanner, but is that what you're spending the 60 RW points for?

More curious than anything.

Cheers,
Thor

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 111
Registered: June 2005
Thor wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 19:56

Now, elec is nice because it gives you something better than the bat scanner, but is that what you're spending the 60 RW points for?

More curious than anything.

Cheers,
Thor


Exp at 3 gets you three things each worth a little bit that in total are worth it to me.

(1) Better starting scanners for finding the enemy on your initial scouts.
(2) Better engines to begin with. Your initial ships are built with DDL 7s which is a shame but any ship you build starts with the RRHS.
(3) Grav terraforming 7 without having to spend a point on Bio and much closer to Bio 4 which is the last one you need.

If you don't want starts at 3, you need to immediately spend resources getting En 2 for the engine and then accept bat scanners on your scouts. Certainly doable but it delays initial scout production by a couple years (or more if STA or not AccBBS). I prefer the faster start 'expensive at 3' gives.

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 21:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 29
Registered: May 2007
Location: California

velvetthroat57 wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 17:41

Exp at 3 gets you three things each worth a little bit that in total are worth it to me.

(1) Better starting scanners for finding the enemy on your initial scouts.
(2) Better engines to begin with. Your initial ships are built with DDL 7s which is a shame but any ship you build starts with the RRHS.
(3) Grav terraforming 7 without having to spend a point on Bio and much closer to Bio 4 which is the last one you need.

If you don't want starts at 3, you need to immediately spend resources getting En 2 for the engine and then accept bat scanners on your scouts. Certainly doable but it delays initial scout production by a couple years (or more if STA or not AccBBS). I prefer the faster start 'expensive at 3' gives.

I think I get it know - I hadn't taken IFE's role into account until you mapped it all out.

By not taking IFE you get 74 points in the RW, and by using those points to pay for starts at 3, you get the benefit of a pretty good FM replacement.

As you also mention the bonus is you get better scanners (which you'd have to pay 280 resources for) and bio which you'll need for basic terraforming and getting you 1000 resources closer to Bio4.

And since starts @3 costs only 60 resources, you get to spend those extra 14 resources on something else useful (e.g. mines).

I hadn't considered that approach before. Thanks for sharing.

Cheers,
Thor

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dethdukk is currently offline dethdukk

 
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Thor, that topic, why choose start@3 with an IT race, has been heavily discussed in another topic in this forum, under the name "Testing..." if you wish to check it out.


If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!

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Re: IT Race needs help Wed, 27 June 2007 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
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Messages: 29
Registered: May 2007
Location: California

dethdukk wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 19:39

Thor, that topic, why choose start @ 3 with an IT race, has been heavily discussed in another topic in this forum, under the name "Testing..." if you wish to check it out.

Thanks for that - interesting conversation. Smile

Before I started my first PBEM game I spent weeks powering through all of the strategy articles and many of the usenet posts. I can see I'm going to have to continue that and power through the forum posts - lots of good stuff in here!

I dare say, this is a darned convivial group in here. Lots of people going out of their way to help folks out.

Cheers,
Thor

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Re: IT Race needs help Thu, 28 June 2007 00:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Thor wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 13:39

I dare say, this is a darned convivial group in here. Lots of people going out of their way to help folks out.


Yeah, it sure is.

I guess it may be because it's a game where you spend so much time thinking... It's nice to share the ideas... And also because the game is quite well balanced, so there are many options, and no real 'best' choice to stifle debate Smile

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Re: IT Race needs help Thu, 28 June 2007 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fenrir is currently offline Fenrir

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 16
Registered: June 2007

Okay, I think I've got something:

IT
IFE, ISB, OBRM, RS
.59 to 1.92 / Temp Immune / 30 to 74
1 in 5
17%
2500/1
12/9/18 checked
12/3/17
Con & Prop normal
rest expensive start@3



Don't be afraid to point me in the right direction. ~^.^~

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Re: IT Race needs help Thu, 28 June 2007 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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Fenrir wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 22:25

Well, I was looking for a race that could progress technologically fairly quickly with a wide hab range.

The usual type of race that can satisfy those requirements is a factoryless race. i.e. set factories to 5/25/5
Allows cheap tech, wide hab, lower mines (10/3/10 easily suffices)

There are some versions of HP races that can do it, but you are still not getting your factory settings anywhere near a HP setting (14-15/8-/21+).
If you are going to set your pop resources to 1/2500 then you really do need the *superb* factories to build you an economy to buy the tech.
12/9/18 is not superb. It is something a HG JoaT would take, and they have pop resources at 1/1000.

These two race types are so diammetrically opposed that it does indeed come down to what do you want to do ?
Factoryless races research tech straight away and are building warfleets by 2420.
HP races just build factories and mines for years and years until they are the biggest resource producers in the galaxy (if lucky and left alone for long enough).

I'd go for the factoryless IT, one of the easiest ways to have fun early that there is.

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Re: IT Race needs help Thu, 28 June 2007 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Fenrir is currently offline Fenrir

 
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so, factoryless is -f right? just to get my acronymns/codewords down.

^^ I'll go with that then. am I looking at 1/1000 pop efficiency or should I use the points to go lower?




Don't be afraid to point me in the right direction. ~^.^~

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Re: IT Race needs help Thu, 28 June 2007 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
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Messages: 29
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Fenrir wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 07:15

^^ I'll go with that then. am I looking at 1/1000 pop efficiency or should I use the points to go lower?


Stick with the 1/1000 for factoryless (or anything other than a full-blooded 1/2500 HP in most cases). Some will say 1/900 affords a faster start up, but the 200 point cost in the race wizard is too prohibitive. Better to use those points on hab.

Cheers,
Thor

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Re: IT Race needs help Thu, 28 June 2007 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

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Fenrir wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 10:15

so, factoryless is -f right? just to get my acronymns/codewords down.



-f == factoryless.

Generally that means 5/25/5 factory settings but you can go as high as 5/25/10 on the theory you will operate factories on conquered worlds even though you will never build any. Unless I am IS, I plan on making enemy worlds smoking cinders before dropping so I take the points only 5 operated gives.

Quote:

^^ I'll go with that then. am I looking at 1/1000 pop efficiency or should I use the points to go lower?


1/1000 is conventional wisdom. As Thor said, 1/900 is sometimes taken but most people think it costs too much. Naturally, I take 1/900 in my designs but if you want a fun beginning design go with 1/1000.

Also take an immunity. You need big greens since breeding is your only source of resources and having an ideal hab value in one field makes a big difference in how frisky your people are.

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Re: IT Race needs help Fri, 29 June 2007 09:50 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Fenrir is currently offline Fenrir

 
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so, in game, just build less factories or none at all?

And, so, does this mean I should shuttle colonists around more instead of worrying so much about Germanium?



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