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Divisor settings. Tue, 26 June 2007 10:20 Go to next message
Soobie

 
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Can someone please point me in the direction of the threads that give the rationale for choosing 1/10 or 1/25 only?

I'm suffering from blindness of some sought, I'm sure Confused

Cheers.


[Updated on: Tue, 26 June 2007 10:20]

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Re: Divisor settings. Tue, 26 June 2007 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Its elementary, Watson. Sherlock
Take and draw graph about resources produced/RW points they cost.
X edge of the graph make of different econ settings.
Now join the points and you see that the curve has 2 maximums at 1/10 and at 1/25. Nod

Anyway you may take 1/9 if you have no need for RW points, or 1/11 or 1/12 if you badly need some. One does not need to be always rational. Wink


[Updated on: Tue, 26 June 2007 13:57]

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Re: Divisor settings. Tue, 26 June 2007 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Kotk wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:08

if you have no need for RW points

With an AR????? Laughing ROFLMAO ROFL
A good one! Thumbsup 2

BR, Iztok

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Re: Divisor settings. Tue, 26 June 2007 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Soobie wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 16:20

Can someone please point me in the direction of the threads that give the rationale for choosing 1/10 or 1/25 only?

In short: if you drop divisor to 1/25 and put points in hab, TT, slightly better growth and some other goodies, you end with a race that starts slowlier, needs more minerals to ferry more pop, and has after 50 turns from ~40% more planets about the same econ, but less tech than 1/10.

On a paper 1/25 looks good, in reality it needs too much space to be viable in anything less than ~50 planets per player.

BR, Iztok

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Re: Divisor settings. Tue, 26 June 2007 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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So the mid-divisor ARs may do well in a test bed, but they will be screwed in a real game?

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Re: Divisor settings. Wed, 27 June 2007 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
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Soobie wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:06

So the mid-divisor ARs may do well in a test bed, but they will be screwed in a real game?


By "mid-divisor" do you mean between 10 and 25? If so, then no - they shouldn't even do well in a testbed (relative to their counterparts). The thing is, at 1/10 you get the best resources, but if you start increasing the divisor, the penalty for increasing it even further becomes small.

What I'm basically saying (and I'm sure most would agree) is that the difference between a divisor of, say, 11 and 12 is much bigger than a difference of, say, 21 and 22 - even though both changes would be worth the same amount of RW points.

For this reason, if it was worth it for you to increase the divisor (for whatever reason - hab, growth rate, etc.) then it would be even better to increase it more - and thus if people increase it, they usually choose the maximum.

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Re: Divisor settings. Wed, 27 June 2007 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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crr65536 wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 01:49

Soobie wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:06

So the mid-divisor ARs may do well in a test bed, but they will be screwed in a real game?


By "mid-divisor" do you mean between 10 and 25? If so, then no - they shouldn't even do well in a testbed (relative to their counterparts). The thing is, at 1/10 you get the best resources, but if you start increasing the divisor, the penalty for increasing it even further becomes small.

What I'm basically saying (and I'm sure most would agree) is that the difference between a divisor of, say, 11 and 12 is much bigger than a difference of, say, 21 and 22 - even though both changes would be worth the same amount of RW points.

For this reason, if it was worth it for you to increase the divisor (for whatever reason - hab, growth rate, etc.) then it would be even better to increase it more - and thus if people increase it, they usually choose the maximum.



Ran a test with an AR with 17 and had about 30K res in 2450 with almost no MM after yr 35. Tech was 16/16/9/17/6/4, Jugs didn't come til 2450 and should have had Armas in a couple of years after. Forgot to turn off no randoms and HW got hit with a meteor in 2446 which actually buggered things up a bit. Universe was tiny packed. made sure 3 planets were out of production pushing out mainly BBs and the odd miner. For an amateur like me who has only used AR in practice once and who is still learning heaps, this seemed decent.

Would I really use the race? Probably not. MM was hellish the early years, tech gain was in the wrong order (Bio4 not until 2428), each planet didn't have lots of res and the mineral crunch lasted 30 years (actually a bit self inflicted, as I had cons7/elec4 early but didn't build miners - just dumb.)
...

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Re: Divisor settings. Wed, 27 June 2007 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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iztok wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 23:23

Kotk wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:08

if you have no need for RW points
With an AR????? Laughing ROFLMAO ROFL
A good one! Thumbsup 2

Deal Imagine designing AR for team of 3 players:
Arrow Over 1 in 8 hab is waste.
Arrow Over 2 cheap tech is waste.
Arrow ARM you got.
Arrow AS is taken by IS teamie.

So ... pick:
19% PGR
18% PGR and points in minerals
17% PGR with UR
16% PGR with TT
15% with 1/9 efficency
Hard to say what is most viable ... but all look playable. Nod
Soobie wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 01:22

Ran a test with an AR with 17 (...) had about 30K res in 2450 (...) Tech was 16/16/9/17/6/4 (...) Universe was tiny packed

OK result. Best i have had in tiny packed was 43K by 2450. Very Happy Tiny packed with its 60 planets is bit too large territory however. Usually you cant hope for so lot of takeable planets in real game. Nod Why i like 1/10 AR-s are the tiny dense results, other seem to do worse there. Just my testbeds of course. Rolling Eyes
...

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Re: Divisor settings. Thu, 28 June 2007 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Kotk wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 12:55


Deal Imagine designing AR for team of 3 players:
Arrow Over 1 in 8 hab is waste.
Arrow Over 2 cheap tech is waste.
Arrow ARM you got.
Arrow AS is taken by IS teamie.



Agree with almost everything you said in that post, but... Over 1 in 8 hab is not a waste... AR doesn't just want 1 in 3 livable (eventually) in a team game... It wants 1 in 3 to be *good* worlds. The hab multiplier on the resource formula is very significant.

I think points to stretching hab will prove more productive than taking divisor to 1/9 or better, even in a team game.

EDIT: Hmm, actually I can think of one situation - if you had a TT CA team mate... Hab loses much of its importance there, past the early game.


[Updated on: Thu, 28 June 2007 00:22]

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Re: Divisor settings. Thu, 28 June 2007 04:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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Kotk wrote on Thu, 28 June 2007 12:25

OK result. Best i have had in tiny packed was 43K by 2450. Very Happy Tiny packed with its 60 planets is bit too large territory however. Usually you cant hope for so lot of takeable planets in real game. Nod Why i like 1/10 AR-s are the tiny dense results, other seem to do worse there. Just my testbeds of course. Rolling Eyes


You're trying to get me to go back and MM the last 15 years. Razz

Actually I think it would intersettle an ally very nicely. While it's a 1 in 5, the hab is such I barely believe anyone would want planets at all similar. Smile

That said, it's not a race that I think would go well alone at all.

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Re: Divisor settings. Thu, 28 June 2007 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
crr65536 wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 18:19

Soobie wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:06

So the mid-divisor ARs may do well in a test bed, but they will be screwed in a real game?


By "mid-divisor" do you mean between 10 and 25? If so, then no - they shouldn't even do well in a testbed (relative to their counterparts).

I disagree here. I see the AR as the only one PRT that can mine just some RW points from pop divisor without significant penality. When going from 1/10(00) to 1/11(00) other races lose 10% of pop output, AR loses sqrt(10)/sqrt(11) or 4.8% for the same +40 RW points.

Quote:

Ran a test with an AR with 17 and had about 30K res in 2450 with almost no MM after yr 35.

I congratulate you. That's the number I matched only recently, and even that after quite some discussions with Kotk.

BR, Iztok

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Re: Divisor settings. Thu, 28 June 2007 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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iztok wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 02:58

I congratulate you. That's the number I matched only recently, and even that after quite some discussions with Kotk.
BR, Iztok

Thank you for the congrats.

I should clarify, the 17 was a 17 divisor.

I since made one with 13 divisor that did a bit better - tiny bit better hab, slightly slower growth, less MM, earlier(!) mineral crunch, built miners earlier, mineral crunch gone. Can't work out a way to get the race design down to 10 divisor with the hab settings I want. Even at 13 divisor, can't get ARM or IFE. Hab is still 1 in 5 but better range of planets. Ran it in tiny dense, got 22K, ran it in tiny packed got 36K with tiny MM after yr 30, ran it again in tiny dense got 13 planets in whole universe = stuffed. So, a little bit of random hab kills it. Knew it would Laughing

(Biggest problem with planet limitation = massive limit on growth. I can't get it better hab, can't get better divisor I feel it would stall in tiny U after about year 2455 or 2460 with maybe 60K res, especially if micro managed the whole way. Bad divisor means must spread to grow. But hell, not being able to spread means you're building BBs from mid/late 30s on and all starbases go DS in early/mid 40s and most go fully outfitted before 2450.)

Point is, AR is fun to test bed. Would like to play this one in a team game at some stage - could be useful to learn how it handles in the real world.

This is a great forum for reading through and getting advice and stuff, and the feedback is terrific.

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Re: Divisor settings. Thu, 28 June 2007 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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iztok wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 03:28

I disagree here. I see the AR as the only one PRT that can mine just some RW points from pop divisor without significant penality. When going from 1/10(00) to 1/11(00) other races lose 10% of pop output, AR loses sqrt(10)/sqrt(11) or 4.8% for the same +40 RW points.


Mmm, not sure I like your logic there... Other races are losing 10% of their pop output, sure... But they aren't losing 10% from their economic output, which is surely what should be compared? Supposing HG 12/x/12 factories, we're only talking about losing 4.1% of output. Even with 10/x/10 factories it'd be only 5% - pretty close. As soon as you add a single factory, or a single factory efficiency, you're down to 4.76% from there - losing less than the AR loses...

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Re: Divisor settings. Fri, 29 June 2007 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 10:19

iztok wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 03:28

I disagree here. I see the AR as the only one PRT that can mine just some RW points from pop divisor without significant penality. When going from 1/10(00) to 1/11(00) other races lose 10% of pop output, AR loses sqrt(10)/sqrt(11) or 4.8% for the same +40 RW points.


Mmm, not sure I like your logic there... Other races are losing 10% of their pop output, sure... But they aren't losing 10% from their economic output, which is surely what should be compared? Supposing HG 12/x/12 factories, we're only talking about losing 4.1% of output. Even with 10/x/10 factories it'd be only 5% - pretty close. As soon as you add a single factory, or a single factory efficiency, you're down to 4.76% from there - losing less than the AR loses...



Reversing Dogthinkers logic (which sound's sound - excuse the pun), would the same work in reverse when moving from 1/25 towards 1/10.
Incremental resource gain for non-AR is limited, or actually inverts and reduces economic output due to reduced fac's? That is, for a time moving towards from 1/2500 to 1/1000 for non-AR actually has a -ve economic impact, while for AR it may have a (small) +ve economic effect?

Just a thought.

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Re: Divisor settings. Mon, 02 July 2007 09:09 Go to previous message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 29 June 2007 02:49

Mmm, not sure I like your logic there...
Supposing HG 12/x/12 factories, we're only talking about losing 4.1% of output.

Yes, final output. For +f races would be true, if they'd start with full factories. But they usually start with 0, and build first ones with 10% less resources. Besides, pop grows for free, while factories don't, and need also the germ for them. So on planets with low germ they still grow and produce as -f with 10% less resources in the early period of the game.

Nothing is 100% true. But for ARs the 11 divisor is less a penality as for any other race.

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 09:10]

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