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IT Duel Race Mon, 25 June 2007 17:11 Go to next message
wizard is currently offline wizard

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 279
Registered: January 2004
Location: Aachen, Germany
Hello,

I just finished (and lost) my first duel. I was playing a Quickstart IT race with the following stats:

IT
IFE, NRSE, CE, OBRM, NAS
0.15g to 1.12g, immune, 14mR to 44mR (1 in 7)
19%
1/1000
12/9/11/4g facs
10/3/11 mines
Weap and Con cheap, rest expensive

Well, the race was fast and got to Jihad Cruisers and inf/300 gates in 2433 with 10 planets colonized (low germ conc on HW, good second planet, bad hab draw otherwise). Too bad that my enemy conquered space faster and held about 3/4 of the universe.
I noticed two flaws of this race:
- too few germ - I should check the germ box next time
- too few planets - perhaps get rid of the immunity and widen the hab to about 1/4?

Well, how would you improve this race for use with the current duel rules?


Thanks for your comments,
Andreas / wizard

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Re: IT Duel Race Mon, 25 June 2007 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
wizard wrote on Mon, 25 June 2007 16:11

Hello,

I just finished (and lost) my first duel. I was playing a Quickstart IT race with the following stats:

IT
IFE, NRSE, CE, OBRM, NAS


CE? are you nutz? Smile
No RS, ouch.

Quote:


10/3/11 mines


Not enough mines. That is one of your problems. You don't have alot of time, and metal is a big deciding factor.

Quote:

Well, the race was fast and got to Jihad Cruisers and inf/300 gates in 2433 with 10 planets colonized (low germ conc on HW, good second planet, bad hab draw otherwise).


Holy crap! 10 planets! Dude, in my duel against dethdukk, at turn 2426, the only 2 green planets over 19% (not including my starting planets), were at (58%) and (87%). I only had a couple that were between 1% - 19%, the rest were yellow or red or inhabited already. Doesn't sound like a bad hab draw to me. I would kill (well, not really) for a start like that. Sounds like you might have done better fighting early.

Quote:

Too bad that my enemy conquered space faster and held about 3/4 of the universe.


I am assuming from what you have said, that your opponet was a -f, probably another IT. That is one of the tougher opponets in a duel.

Quote:

I noticed two flaws of this race:
- too few germ - I should check the germ box next time
- too few planets - perhaps get rid of the immunity and widen the hab to about 1/4?

Well, how would you improve this race for use with the current duel rules?


I think that you either need to go narrower hab, to make your race faster, or go wider and lose first strike capability. A 1in7 hab is actually pretty wide. I went with a 1in25 hab. Laughing I think I am going to change that...well, I better, now that I just posted it. Smile

The problem is that the wider you go, you have to lose something vital. Either research, factories, mines, pop growth, or whatever. Point is, you are essentially giving away your initiative to get a wide hab with a factoried race in a small normal duel. Dethdukk had a similiar design, and had the same result, slower explosion
...



[Updated on: Tue, 26 June 2007 01:17]




Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: IT Duel Race Mon, 25 June 2007 20:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 29
Registered: May 2007
Location: California

Well, I've only completed one duel but it's high time I start contributing to this community instead of just acquiring knowledge, so I'll give this a go.

Quote:

IT

Good choice - I definitely want to try this in a future duel. From what I heard a couple of dueling champions used this PRT and its ability to grab and fortify planets is very helpful.

Quote:

IFE, NRSE, CE, OBRM, NAS

IEF - I've heard folks say that IT can get away without IFE, but having to 'grab' planets at warp 7 just doesn't seem like it would be very effective in a duel. I'm with you on the IFE front.
NRSE - FMs make for pretty slow missile ships, and checking this does give you some RW points. If your strategy was to go with a beamer horde then I probably wouldn't take this so I could get the cheaper ramscoops.
CE - I'd never take it, but that's just me.
OBRM - Agreed.
NAS - Agreed.

Quote:

0.15g to 1.12g, immune, 14mR to 44mR (1 in 7)

I would have thought that would be plenty wide enough and I would have been inclined to narrow it further, going for the traditional 1-immune HG 1/11 draw.

Quote:

19%

Agreed

Quote:

1/1000

Agreed

Quote:

12/9/11/4g facs

The 12/9 looks OK, although 13/8 would be more in line with a QS design. The 11/4 is a bit light, though. Since you're spending points on factory efficiency I think you'd be better off giving them more factories operated. Not so many that you run out of G, but enough to make it worthwhile. 14-16 depending on what you can pay for.

Quote:

10/3/11 mines

That's low. One of the best pieces of advice I got from Micha was to ensure mines operated is at least 2 (and preferably more) than the number of factories operated. If your facts are 14-16, mines should be at least 16-18.

I see Matt is suggesting not checking the G box for factories and using that to buy more mines operated. Interesting idea, and so long as your duel isn't going to go on too long (which it probably won't) it sounds like a good one (idea, that is.

Quote:

Weap and Con cheap, rest expensive

Duels s
...



[Updated on: Mon, 25 June 2007 20:24]

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Re: IT Duel Race Tue, 26 June 2007 01:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Thor wrote on Mon, 25 June 2007 19:06

I'm not brave enough to try Matt's no G checked with extra mines strategy, but that's only because I haven't tried it.


Well, take Wizards race, but steal 58 points from hab to get the needed points for example. Start on a HW with 50% min cons, and assuming 200k in each min on the surface. Level the pop off at the turn 2407 peak of 394,000, which is shipping 54,800 off somewhere each turn for 20 years.

By 2427, both build all factories and mines easily, and with the G box checked you end with -

Iron Bora Germ
3427 3427 2035

Same exact settings, except adding 5 mines, and unchecking germ box.

Iron Bora Germ
4429 4429 2574

For other comparisons...

Checking the G box vs building mines will give you-

12,154 - 11,267 = 887 more research, or whatever, since you are building less mines.

Oh, races hit the 30% min mark at Y2422 and Y2418. The difference in mining rate at 30% level was 129kt vs 189kt of each min a turn.

-Matt









Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: IT Duel Race Tue, 26 June 2007 11:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
wizard wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 00:11

IT
IFE, NRSE, CE, OBRM, NAS
0.15g to 1.12g, immune, 14mR to 44mR (1 in 7)
19%
1/1000
12/9/11/4g facs
10/3/11 mines
Weap and Con cheap, rest expensive

***

Well, how would you improve this race for use with the current duel rules?

In general... for a tournament duels make races that can claim and control territories. This one failed. Duel has 64 planets per player and victory rules are about controling more than just 8 planets around HW. At 2430 such wide habbed race should have over 16 planets colonized (10 of them should be well built production centers) otherwise it has low hopes. Confused Cool

First ... It is not fair to call it a QS. It is a HG. Quite standard one-immune HG with low end econ, rather crap mines, unneeded IFE, missing RS, unsure to where invested CE points and rather wide hab. So ... dig around for published QS races first.
OTOH Duels may be won with HG-s too. Nod So ... i just discuss my HG comments maybe bit more deeply: Wink

Deal I just dont like one-immune HG-s or HP-s. Especially IT with 19% growth. It runs into the "where to put that pop" problems. I prefer HG or HP without immunities or one immune QS races. Cant explain why exactly ... others feel wrong.

Deal 10/3/11 mines are too crappy to build factories and stations simultaneously. That is easy to calculate out. Meanwhile your opponent can control the board with not that numerous destroyers. You are unable to beat him with only HW production (HW got to build pop lifing stuff too) and will sit in corner.

Deal Why IFE? IT may survive without ISB ... but then why waste the points of ISB into IFE? Just for alpha drive 8? It is not that fine engine and building it at cost of dad leg 7 does not make it much better.

Deal Do not enter a duel without RS unless you want to insult your opponent. Very Happy Feels like:" Nana-nana-i-will-roast-you-without-RS, Per. Nana nana bubu " Well ... you didnt. Wink

Deal CE gives lots of points. If you take CE then aim for economy monster of monsters. CE should make you strong si
...

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Re: IT Duel Race Tue, 26 June 2007 19:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 29
Registered: May 2007
Location: California

Quote:

[snip Matt's compelling numbers...]

Nice - thanks for laying it all out. Just for the record I did say I thought it was a good idea. Smile Not having tried it, myself, I didn't think it proper to be advocating it in the first person.

Ii'll be trying this in my next duel, though!

Cheers,
Thor

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Re: IT Duel Race Tue, 26 June 2007 20:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
Thor wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:13

Just for the record I did say I thought it was a good idea. Smile Not having tried it, myself, I didn't think it proper to be advocating it in the first person.


Oh, no problem. I actually did it more to check my memory, and shared my limited test results. I knew that I was "most likely correct" about getting more Germ (let's say 99.5% sure), but I am not a big time number cruncher. Plus, most of my testing I did over 5 years ago, and I have a poor memory. It's well documented. Smile So, I thought I better check to make sure I wasn't giving bunk advice.

-Matt




Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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race design OR style of playing Wed, 27 June 2007 20:09 Go to previous message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
Lot's of ITs in the duel championship this year. I've also played one as well as my opponent bystander.

wizard wrote on Mon, 25 June 2007 23:11

I just finished (and lost) my first duel. I was playing a Quickstart IT race with the following stats:

IT
IFE, NRSE, CE, OBRM, NAS


Did you not miss the cheap docks for defense and production coming with ISB?
Especially in a duel?
Stations are also quite germ-hungry in comparison to a dock.

If the PRT IT was the reason for not taking RS, then that's a common IT-mistake coming from having the IT-gates: "why should I care about weight". As if armour would be really an alternative to shields in terms of costs, minerals, battle speed, the power of stacked shields...
If you left out RS because a 6th LRT is never really optimal... understandable.

Quote:

Well, the race was fast and got to Jihad Cruisers and inf/300 gates in 2433


Why Jihad Cruisers?
Isn't the first important step: con 9 and weap 7?
Cruisers, bazookas and m70-bomb is the stuff you can build with your first decent attack-fleet for planetary conquest... especially as an IT who can get it instantly to the frontier and make full usage of the power of an early stacked CC-fleet. And mini-bombers and bazooka-CCs don't really need the inf/300 gate. One of the not commonly known advantages of ITs: no losses due to mass-overgating (except more than 100% damage is reached for a ship).

When waiting for jihad-CCs, one can be pretty sure that the enemy has weap 12, too. And weap 12 is like WWI: defence is usually stronger than the offence... until the tanks come in (battleships).

Thus I would say that weap 12 in itself is a defensive step that needs con 13 to become offensive.

Quote:

with 10 planets colonized (low germ conc on HW, good second planet, bad hab draw otherwise). Too bad that my enemy conquered space faster and held about 3/4 of the universe.
I noticed two flaws of this race:
- too few germ - I should check the germ box next time
- too few planets - perhaps get rid of the
...



[Updated on: Sat, 30 June 2007 10:45]

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