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AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Wed, 20 June 2007 00:11 Go to next message
Soobie

 
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Because when the ship doesn't move the colonists don't die, I am thinking that CE is not so bad a choice compared to LSP (when looking for a boost RW points).

On the flipside for LSP: If I have a choice of, say, 17%GR with LSP or 16% without, what is likely to be better for AR? (Assume 16% GR also widens hab a very little bit - maybe 1-2 clicks max)

With AccBBS, I had a spreadsheet I did indicate 17%+LSP catches up pop by about yr42(!) (with perfect pop movement) and delaying pop movement from HW by 2 yrs *if* we wait to 250K pop. Yet AR handles low pop well, and reality is always different to a spreadsheet.
(Sidenote: Catch up pop is about yr 20 if it is 18%+LSP vs 16%)

Any thoughts on these 2 similar issues, please?

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Wed, 20 June 2007 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
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I don't think you wan't GR with AR.

GR doubles the time it takes to get a specific field done anyway and with AR needing energy research to increase its resources, GR more than doubles the ramp up time since you can't get the higher energy levels as fast because of GR and then you don't have as many resources to spend because your energy tech is lagging.

CE on the other hand I like. I like it for most races which puts me in the minority but for AR it not only doesn't kill pop when it fails but it makes engines half cost including mineral cost. AR can get very tight on minerals early on and CE eases that crunch allowing a few more ships to be built as well as being a good source of RW points.

LSP I don't like although it is less painful for AR. If it gets me a higher growth rate, then I might do it. I would prefer to pay for it with a narrower hab though.

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Wed, 20 June 2007 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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velvetthroat57 wrote on Wed, 20 June 2007 22:42

I don't think you wan't GR with AR.

GR doubles the time it takes to get a specific field done anyway and with AR needing energy research to increase its resources, GR more than doubles the ramp up time since you can't get the higher energy levels as fast because of GR and then you don't have as many resources to spend because your energy tech is lagging.



This was a miscommunication on my part - in this instance, I meant Growth Rate=GR, not that woeful LRT generalized research. Apologies at the confusion. Confused

In essence, in the second questions I am asking:
* take LSP+17% growth rate; or
* take 16% growth rate+no LSP+ a little bit of something extra, like 1 cheaper tech or very slightly wider hab).

I'm leaning towards the higher growth, as the extra couple of years of research and scouting is kinda nice before moving pop.

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Wed, 20 June 2007 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Soobie wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 00:06

In essence, in the second questions I am asking:
* take LSP+17% growth rate; or
* take 16% growth rate+no LSP+ a little bit of something extra, like 1 cheaper tech or very slightly wider hab).

I'm leaning towards the higher growth, as the extra couple of years of research and scouting is kinda nice before moving pop.


AR shouldn't be waiting for 25% hold. The SQRT formula for resources drives us out as fast as we can find decent worlds. Of course, if you are unable to get the scouts out fast enough, then you've little choice but to delay a little.

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Thu, 21 June 2007 03:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 12:02

AR shouldn't be waiting for 25% hold. The SQRT formula for resources drives us out as fast as we can find decent worlds. Of course, if you are unable to get the scouts out fast enough, then you've little choice but to delay a little.


So going a small step further, go for the lower GR? If (hypothetically of course) one was using a 1/25 race with a 16% GR, what would be a good lower stable pop? Razz

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Thu, 21 June 2007 06:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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Try to stay at about 1000kT-1250kT on your homeworld.
At 16% growth this should give you almost a MF of pop a turn.
Colonise Best Greens->Greens->poor green/yellow->red
Once all planets have 250kT of pop you can let your homeworld rise to a higher level.

Because of the sqrt formula even a red will produce more resources per head of pop "when they have less than 1/4 of the pop"
(due to their annoying habit of dying you might be better off just sticking 100kT on reds)
With other greens fill them to their %level (so a 50% should have 500kT, a 90% should have 900kT).
Once all greens have hit their %level then you should let your homeworld rise
Get close to this and you will maximise your resources and minerals (but not necessaraly your pop growth).
Remember that you want to start exporting pop from greens as soon as they reach their %level hold.

Then let homeworld and 100% worlds rise to 2000kT and repeat (with all the numbers doubled)



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Thu, 21 June 2007 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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joseph wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 20:10




Fairly sound... Take care not to let any green worlds get over 25% full until there's no other option.

The tricky thing with AR, is finding the compromise between pop growth and resources - if we spread out well, we'll get great resources, but growth will suffer, since pop that could be at breeders, are instead stagnating (or worse) on poor worlds.

I don't have a good answer for this. Depends too much on the situation - how urgently is research needed etc.

In practice, I'll behave much like Joseph described. I'll dump at least 22kt absolutely everywhere (a pinta load.) I'll try to put enough on yellows that they will develop in a reasonable time (although in the early days they are more likely to research, than terraform.) I try to have the rest of the pop spread fairly evenly across all the greens. Once I have a decent spread, I'll let the 90%+ worlds get up to 20-25% capacity, at which point I'll start filling the non-breeders, much like one does with normal races. I suppose the significant difference is really just at the start, where 5% capacity per world looks great, compared to a normal race which would be waiting for breeders to fill to 25%.

ISB works very well with this approach for AR, since it's a long time before you need to keep more than 125,000 pop (25% of the 500,000 that a dock can hold) at any world. Starter colonies work ok for a bit, but even for AR 62,500 isn't really much per world after the first couple of decades.


By the way, to throw a spanner in the works of the whole merits of 16% vs 17% discussion... My current AR race uses a 13% PGR.


[Updated on: Thu, 21 June 2007 22:20]

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Fri, 22 June 2007 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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joseph wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 20:10

*lots of useful information*

Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 22 June 2007 11:44

By the way, to throw a spanner in the works of the whole merits of 16% vs 17% discussion... My current AR race uses a 13% PGR.


Thanks heaps to you both. Yes, in reading the AR posts I have the impression that AR doesn't need the higher growth rate, but I'm working on a fractured race (ended up going with CE and 16% growth, no LSP in this instance - although I didn't think it would do well when I could only get to En6/Con3 by 2410). It seems to have come in just short of a monster with 1/25 divisor and against 3 AIs so I'm not unhappy with it (I don't want to hear about how AIs actually help. I'm not listening. lalala) ... other than I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work in a real game Very Happy (I had an interesting variant with En8 in 2410 that had first useful gates up by yr 12, which I actually think could work with a different PRT)

Now I'm just practicing having NO ISB and NO ARM (and 17% growth with no LSP) to see if I can make it work. (Its not working well - I seem to rely quite heavily on spacedocks (with their small manufacturing and refuelling) with gates rather than orbitals with gates.) Confused

But my conclusion so far is that AR is a REALLY interesting race to play around with. Smile

Edit: was En6 @ yr 10, not En9. Jeez.


[Updated on: Sun, 24 June 2007 02:57]

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Fri, 22 June 2007 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
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Soobie wrote on Fri, 22 June 2007 03:59

I don't want to hear about how AIs actually help. I'm not listening. lalala



Actually AIs are a pain in the rear for AR. Races that have actual colonists can gain tech from AIs by sending transports to take out HE colonies on planet after planet after planet. That option isn't open to AR. Additionally, the weak ships the AIs build are no threat to other races but they can easily take out the leading edge of AR bases before you can properly defend them.

As to PGR, I am afraid my best result was with a 1-immune 19% growth rate. I tried some 12-13% bi-immunes and they were easier to play but couldn't get close to the resources.

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Sat, 23 June 2007 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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velvetthroat57 wrote on Fri, 22 June 2007 09:57

As to PGR, I am afraid my best result was with a 1-immune 19% growth rate. I tried some 12-13% bi-immunes and they were easier to play but couldn't get close to the resources.

I concur with this - maybe it is just my play style, but 1-immune 19% outperformed every significantly different kind of AR by at least 2-to-1 during my tests.

LSP lowered my results by delaying energy tech advances. Having fewer scouts and getting my transports a few years later because of having few resources early on slowed my growth tremendously.

I do not doubt that eventually the LSP races would have caught up, but with AR you need all the advantages you can get as soon as you can get them.

In the case of Dogthinker's AR, the only reason it is alive is because a neighbor wanted him to live. Given peace and quiet in which to develop early makes a huge difference... in the normal course of things he would have been the first race to die. I believe a 19%, provided it did not use the same hab as everyone else, would have been able to recover from periodic losses and could have been somewhat viable even without a sponsor.

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Sun, 24 June 2007 12:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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My best performing AR-s have all had 1-immune hab with 15% PGR.
14% or 13% are getting up bit too slowly.
16% with LSP seems almost as good as 15%, 17% already has too narrow hab or other problems. Nod

19% seems viable only in endless space testbeds; if to limit it with situation remotely resembling real game situations (like take tiny dense and testbed there) ... any 19% AR seems plain pathetic while 15% AR can squeeze 25K by 2450 out of it. Very Happy

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Sun, 24 June 2007 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Marduk wrote on Sun, 24 June 2007 05:54

In the case of Dogthinker's AR, the only reason it is alive is because a neighbor wanted him to live. Given peace and quiet in which to develop early makes a huge difference... in the normal course of things he would have been the first race to die. I believe a 19%, provided it did not use the same hab as everyone else, would have been able to recover from periodic losses and could have been somewhat viable even without a sponsor.


LOL... It does kinda bug me when people on the opposite side of the universe, tell you what your race is and isn't capable of.

I fought early. Just having a peacefull neighbour doesn't mean that much. He didn't 'keep me alive', we just didn't fight. Another neighbour (IT) attacked me quite early and with significant numbers of cruisers, since I'd effectively invaded his space with my highly aggressive colonising. I slaughtered those attacks. I didn't receive help doing so. I was just about to press the advantage I had developed when a third race entered the fray and mortally wounded that race. Shortly afterwards I attacked and ate my third neighbour, an IS. I was hardly a lamb...

The race was designed to be able to fight early. Low growth != not able to fight, especially for AR. On the contrary, it means more points for investment in other areas.


After the game, it felt like 14% would've handled a little better. I researched and tested heavily before the game to select my PGR/Hab/LRT mix. 14% came out on top, but 13% was very close and let me have the LRTs I wanted to play with... But the hab draw was appalling, so I had to go a *long* way to get my target number of planets (4 jumps to get what I exected to have in 2.)

Should probably add, I'm talking about 1/10 eff, 1 immune AR... 1/25 AR needs higher growth, since the pop does such a bad job...
...



[Updated on: Sun, 24 June 2007 20:49]

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Tue, 26 June 2007 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Yep 13% and 14% are quite OK. Even 11% 2-immune can keep his against one clumsy neighbour. Still i am wondering the diplomacy that you did. Logical path for anyone in a single victor game is to agree upon territory of that AR there between them. Nod Maybe you said that there is Kotk in other corner so you should gang up with Ptolemy and Gible otherwise no chance? Rolling Eyes Laughing

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Re: AR - LSP vs CE; LSP vs GR Tue, 26 June 2007 21:30 Go to previous message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Kotk wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 23:27

Yep 13% and 14% are quite OK. Even 11% 2-immune can keep his against one clumsy neighbour. Still i am wondering the diplomacy that you did. Logical path for anyone in a single victor game is to agree upon territory of that AR there between them. Nod Maybe you said that there is Kotk in other corner so you should gang up with Ptolemy and Gible otherwise no chance? Rolling Eyes Laughing



Well... Should probably create a game end thread now, as the game appears to have finally ended.

I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll try to keep this short... Suffice to say that other races always posed adequate threats. It is quite a challenge, to ensure that assisting your race always appears to be a smarter option than fighting with it... The most interesting part in this case, was getting over the 'hump' - the critical point where your ally can see that soon they will not be able to resist you... It was certainly convenient having the spectre of a strong and aggressive 3i HE across the universe.

A weak 'pet' AR, supplying minerals to it's stronger masters, is quite a glittering prize for other races... They just weren't expecting it to grow so well (neither was I, at the time Wink

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