As agreed the MkIV BB designs do best with 14 weapons with allowance for possible attractiveness changes due to tech advances.

Hopefully, Atruist can add images to this post.

=> I've uploaded them and edited this post (Altruist)

[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2007 07:47] by Moderator

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Uploaded John's images.

But I would strongly suggest to change the Blaster-design towards one where both 6-slots are maximized:


It might be also a good idea to have 2 or 4 lasers onboard of our sapper-BB for minesweeping and defense against CCs. This will change John's carefully calculated attractiveness, though.

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Here the final designs as they go into production:

Pak'ma'ra zai'dz'zev (already 22 produced):


Spoo Vladimir (going into production this year):
I wasn't sure wether tech-transfer would work out with the Shadows, so I researched weap 15 myself...


Remember to use even the same icons.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 June 2007 08:40]

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What do you mean with IS armor? Fielded Kelarium?

Are you sure the 7 comps design is the one to go? It´ll introduce a great factor of randomness.

I´m a fan of the 4 comps / 3 jammers variant as a balanced design. Against enemy unjammed ships the difference isn´t that great, but let´s check the numbers:

4 SBC, unjammed target, 6 juggs: 1454 / 364 / 385
7 SBC, unjammed target, 6 juggs: 1681 / 420 / 427 (+13% vs. 4 SBC)
7 SBC, 3 jammer target, 6 juggs: 1154 / 289 / 617 (-29% vs. unjammed)
7 SBC, unjammed target, 6 dooms: 3152 / 788 / 801
7 SBC, 3 jammer target, 6 dooms: 2230 / 557 / 628 (-28%)

4 SBC vs. 7 SBC do 13% less damage due to lesser accuracy but take about 30% less. Initiative is a toss-up against enemy juggs for 7 SBC and automatically lost for 4.

But: 7 SBC jugg BB has init 25 while (10 + 7*2 + 1) while our standard sapper has only 24 (10 + 14)!

So the first salvo with a 7 SBC model is against fully shielded opponents while the 4 SBC one can hopefully do double damage on the first salvo!

Plus: We´ll soon be facing Doomsday BBs and safely assuming they go for the same design we´ll lose init anyway even with the 7 SBC model!

Let´s check on init compared to beamers: 4 SBCs / jugg has 19, our Mark IV has 17 (doesn´t matter too much who shoots first though), Heavy Blaster has 15 and Disruptor at W20 has 18, Mega-D at W 22 16. So unless they put comps on their beamers our 4 SBC missile ship would still fire before enemy beamers but after our sappers.

Don´t have the time to check attractiveness, the all-missile version without jammers might even be more attractive than our beamers, something we definetely don´t want.

Conclusion: I strongly suggest that we go for a 4 SBC / 3 jammer model. I´m neutral about the wing slots and can live with either beams, sappers or missiles. Again assuming that they´ll soon have doomsdays with range 6 it might be advisable to use only 16 missiles if we go for armor to keep the weight down.

[Updated on: Tue, 17 July 2007 15:20]

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Skaffen wrote on Tue, 17 July 2007 21:03

What do you mean with IS armor? Fielded Kelarium?

... yes, never really used it, couldn't remember the name.

Quote:

Are you sure the 7 comps design is the one to go? It´ll introduce a great factor of randomness.

No, I'm not sure. I did think about it that we soon would be facing dooms ... unfortunately ...
Not looking at the damage calculations but alone for the less randomness in testbeds I'm going to agree to go with less comps. Also I did not check the firing order of sappers and missiles.


Anyway in this case I would be even stronger in favour for a 6*2 missile boat in order to have more defensive bonusses because of a larger stack and more room for armor ... Well, either more armor of higher speed. If you are happy with more armor you can add more and keep 1.75 move or if you like speed you can keep speed 2 and use less armor ... Personally 1.75 is probably enough and hardening the BBs that will always fire last might be a good thing. Of course "firing last" is hypothetical since there is the matter of chaff, anti-chaff, anti-anti-... you know what I mean ... and of course crowding.


mch

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AlexTheGreat wrote on Wed, 18 July 2007 09:35

I do not like hybrids since I want to ensure my missiles are fired at maximum distance (unless puting them on helps draw in our range 5 missiles v their range 6 - not sure if it would; might depend more on BO?).

Not sure what you mean by "hybrids" ... beam weapons on missile ships? I suppose giving those maximize damage would force the ships to move closer to get into beam range as well ...
Keep in mind this is a very non-standard game, if we work with crowding those potential sappers on missile ships *will* be used and most likely even have the first shot since the dedicated sappers don't have added comps.

Quote:

Fielded Kelarium still gives only half armour strength for RS. I haven't worked out cost/damage done/damage taken of a stack with Fielded Kelarium ships v no armour.

In general I would not add armor, or only light cheap bio armor ... but since we'll for certain not have the first shot and are depending on sucking up one missile volley I'd prefer to have more armor per BB to make them more resistant.
Let's say you can build 3 non armored BBs for the cost of 2 armored BBs. Enemy shoots first and since the non armored can take less damage one immediately gets killed while the armored would end up with 99% damage ... the latter can shoot back ...

Quote:

Since I have no EP I guess my own design can be my own design so I would probably either use your design but with IS-10/(3 SBC + 3 J20 + OT OR 6 SBC + OT) for speed or completely forget speed & go for FM/4 SBC/3 J20. Haven't worked it out at this stage.

We'll need the speed when we go to hunt their starbases. ... but again, non-standard game with lots of crowding possibilities ...

mch

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[Updated on: Tue, 24 July 2007 23:16]

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AlexTheGreat wrote on Wed, 25 July 2007 03:35

My strong preference is for what I will call the "Spartacus": BB with FM, 16 HB, 4 PS, 8 Gorilla, 3 caps, 3 BSC, 1 OT. This ship is only 301Kt & so will move last 88.9% of the time, is a VERY efficient Low Guard killer & a good PofS killer. It shoots first against both the Low Guard & the PofS. Our ships required to kill 50 enemy BBs (marginal victory): v PofS: ....... Always needs 43. v Low Guard: If we always stay out of range we need only 18! .................. If we stay out of range in round 1 but are caught in round 2 we need 38. .................. If we are caught in round 1 (11.1% chance) we need about 54 (estimate).

Sounds good! As soon as I get the sheilds I'll switch to that design ... in the mean time I might get some tech ... not sure ... need to safe minerals (bor).
Hm, maybe prep some bombers to go through the Dog House gate in 6 years ... though that will cost bor again. <g>

Do we need to bomb/kill the Vorlon HW? Or only orbit? Or even inhabit?

mch

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Micha wrote on Thu, 26 July 2007 21:31

Do we need to bomb/kill the Vorlon HW? Or only orbit? Or even inhabit? mch

To quote from the game announcement:

All victory conditions are based on the defeat of the Ancient Homeworlds. This means eradication of population on the planets.

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Micha wrote on Thu, 26 July 2007 21:31

AlexTheGreat wrote on Wed, 25 July 2007 03:35 My strong preference is for what I will call the "Spartacus": BB with FM, 16 HB, 4 PS, 8 Gorilla, 3 caps, 3 BSC, 1 OT. This ship is only 301Kt & so will move last 88.9% of the time, is a VERY efficient Low Guard killer & a good PofS killer. It shoots first against both the Low Guard & the PofS. Our ships required to kill 50 enemy BBs (marginal victory): v PofS: ....... Always needs 43. v Low Guard: If we always stay out of range we need only 18! .................. If we stay out of range in round 1 but are caught in round 2 we need 38. .................. If we are caught in round 1 (11.1% chance) we need about 54 (estimate). Sounds good! As soon as I get the sheilds I'll switch to that design ... in the mean time I might get some tech ... not sure ... need to safe minerals (bor). Hm, maybe prep some bombers to go through the Dog House gate in 6 years ... though that will cost bor again. <g>

Mwuhahaha ... I don't have the FM!

So there goes 2 wasted years of waiting for eny14 ... unless I use the rad ram .. weight is 317kT instead of 301kT ... Resource cost is the same, but more germ (of which I have waaaay too many!)

mch

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Micha wrote on Thu, 02 August 2007 13:31

Micha wrote on Thu, 26 July 2007 21:31 AlexTheGreat wrote on Wed, 25 July 2007 03:35 My strong preference is for what I will call the "Spartacus": BB with FM, 16 HB, 4 PS, 8 Gorilla, 3 caps, 3 BSC, 1 OT. This ship is only 301Kt & so will move last 88.9% of the time, is a VERY efficient Low Guard killer & a good PofS killer. It shoots first against both the Low Guard & the PofS. Our ships required to kill 50 enemy BBs (marginal victory): v PofS: ....... Always needs 43. v Low Guard: If we always stay out of range we need only 18! .................. If we stay out of range in round 1 but are caught in round 2 we need 38. .................. If we are caught in round 1 (11.1% chance) we need about 54 (estimate). Sounds good! As soon as I get the sheilds I'll switch to that design ... in the mean time I might get some tech ... not sure ... need to safe minerals (bor). Hm, maybe prep some bombers to go through the Dog House gate in 6 years ... though that will cost bor again. <g> Mwuhahaha ... I don't have the FM! So there goes 2 wasted years of waiting for eny14 ... unless I use the rad ram .. weight is 317kT instead of 301kT ... Resource cost is the same, but more germ (of which I have waaaay too many!)

The Rad Ram is a decent alternative.

Chances of them moving last changes from 11.1% to 20.7% so you will usually get caught by the 3rd round but you will get 3 shots in more often than not (2 while out of range + 1 for higher init). The principal is still the same.

Note that the Hyaks are now also building some "High Guard" ships too - smaller numbers so far. As for Low Guard but with 7 BSC & Super Scoop - It is 349Kt (v 317Kt Spartacus their chances of moving last = 23.2%) so you still usually keep your distance & they're less powerful than the Low Guard.

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Due to the high ini 3rd generation BBs of the Hyaks, I thought it necessary to change some designs:

BB Vladimir II

As you can see I raised the ini with 1 super-comp. This way my missile-BB shoots after the sappers. It's even possible to design a reasonable Ultra-station that shoots after Vladimir II. Additionally I upgraded the shields and replaced the gatlings with range 3 lasers (to shoot at chaff).

BB Rocket Worms


If you don't want to upgrade the alliance sapper-design, I can build more Zaidzevs instead of Vladimir-I-ships which aren't of much use for the Spoo against the Hyak by now.

Production of Vladimir II has already started but I am certainly interested to hear some comments, improvements about BB Rocket Worms.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 August 2007 19:03]

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Altruist wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:02

Due to the high ini 3rd generation BBs of the Hyaks, I thought it necessary to change some designs: BB Vladimir II As you can see I raised the ini with 1 super-comp. This way my missile-BB shoots after the sappers. It's even possible to design a reasonable Ultra-station that shoots after Vladimir II. Additionally I upgraded the shields and replaced the gatlings with range 3 lasers (to shoot at chaff).

I'm not completely convinced the the blaster is needed since you should have some beam ships support anyway but otherwise I like the design.

Quote:

BB Rocket Worms If you don't want to upgrade the alliance sapper-design, I can build more Zaidzevs instead of Vladimir-I-ships which aren't of much use for the Spoo against the Hyak by now. Production of Vladimir II has already started but I am certainly interested to hear some comments, improvements about BB Rocket Worms.

I also like the Rocket Worms tho you should bear in mind that the new VA W20 missile ship still out-inits it AND the High Guard will fire before the Rocket Worms.

I would build the "Spartacus" for local warfare instead of more Zaidzevs.

The Zaidzev/Vladimir I now become high-end horde ships specifically (or mainly) for the invasion. BTW the Vladimir is still useful for the invasion because the Zaidzevs will protect them (they were designed to do so).

Note: As said in the other thread, the High Guard is more difficult to counter than the Low Guard, but the Spartacus still works well against it since the Spartacus will usually fire while keeping out of range until they are caught - effectively the High Guard moves in one battle round earlier by virtue of their higher init.

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