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| Grand Strategy |
Sat, 24 March 2007 10:56  |
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 Skaffen |
 | Senior Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 90
Registered: December 2006
Location: Germany | |
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OK,
based on the latest map (thanks!) I want to discuss a couple of things. I´ve drawn some very rough borderish things and marked regions of interest for easier reference.
1: Gaim - Mars border, site of current serious skirmishing and home to two major shadow colonies soon
2: Minbari space
3: Drakh - Earth border, contested area
4: Spoo - Centauri border, latest Spoo push stopped before it really began
5: Narn space, Pak southern border. I have no feel for the dynamics in this area and can´t comment much on it.
6: big fat middle ground
Overall I see 3-4 regions of conflict where serious shooting will probably start in 2462: 1, 2, 3, 4. Needless to say, I don´t think we can afford to fight on 4 fronts while being behind in tech... 
Let´s start with the easy one: 2. Once the shooting starts and the gloves are off, I think the Minbari will be toast. They´re too far away for us to help them, the only way we could do anything would be to recruit them now, give them oberservers and feed them tech so that the shadow alliance will at least have a bit of a fight on their hands. I´d say we do it, I´ve been in contact and if you guys agree I´ll approach them again and offer to join. I hope you can provide another round of observer ships at our W/L-sites
3: As far as I see it there´s not much we can do to get a peace agreement here. Earth wants to go after the Drakh I´m sure and I don´t think we could dissuade them (I´ll try a last recruitment approach though).
As long as 1 develops into a shooting war, Gaim can´t provide a lot of help beyond speed trap minelayers and the energy tech I´ll soon be researching.
Llort are on pretty good terms with Earth, they have to decide how far they are willing to go in providing help to the Drakh, no use ignoring this issue. But we have to consider that unless we recruit Earth, they will ultimately be enemy and the friendship can´t go on forever.
1 and 4 are connected in the way we should approach them. I´m pretty sure I could hold my own against the Martians but if they want to keep attacking and get active shadow aid in 2462 I´m in trouble and will need more than just tech support from the Llort. I guess the same will hold true for the Spoo against the Centauri.
My suggestion would be to approach the Shadows and their allies and offer them some form of NAP, defined borders more or less along the blue lines and an agreement to let them expand through the middle region 6 in return for not bothering us for X years. I think our original assessment that the Shadows have the weaker alliance still stands, unfortunately the Spoo comment on their approach to things with growing through weaker younger races also still seems to stand unless we can make them a good offer.
As a tactical advantage against the Vorlons we can maybe offer them passage rights through corridors of our space for flaking manouvers (maybe by setting up a gate world for them?) I´d approach them since they know me as independant anyway if you agree to the proposal.
Narns will probably end up in the alliance anyway so Spoo have to decide how far they want to push the skirmishing. As I said, can´t say much about the dynamics in the SE and how relations are there, that I leave for someone else.
As for region 6: I suggest we stay out of it. Borders with the elders and their allies only work if they have what looks like an attractive way of expansion and route to the enemy. Setting up shop there in a serious way might not be worth the effort because it´ll block the way if we put up minefields and draw us into a shooting war we can ill-afford at the moment.
We don´t really need the settlements there (well, of course there are some juicy greens there, problem is that they´re juicy for everyone...  ), we can trade tech efficiently without "The Linkup" and if we make economic use of the planets in our area (which we are already doing) I think we can leave them the area as a fighting ground.
Once we are strong enough for a pushback, we have more direct routes to the Elder HWs and allies space anyway and are set up for a flanking attack as it is.
What are your thoughts on this? If we can reach the agreement with the shadow alliance it´d free us to deal with Earth unless they can be turned and the eastern block can grow nicely or start fighting against the elder alliance as well, with the Narn in the lead to take the brunt of the attack...
Drakh, can you please give some input on the situation with Earth as I could provide active aid if I reach an agreement with Shadows and Mars but I don´t really know what´s going on there and what would be required.
Now, what´s plan B? What do we do if Shadows and their allies decline the offer?
[Updated on: Sat, 24 March 2007 11:19] Report message to a moderator
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| NAP with Shadows |
Sun, 25 March 2007 13:52  |
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| Quote: |
My suggestion would be to approach the Shadows and their allies and offer them some form of NAP
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Similar to the NAP you had with Mars?
Usually I follow a very simple rule:
if somebody has broken a treaty, never again make a treaty with him.
Well, to descripbe my situation with the Centauri, I could add rule II:
Never NAP a PP if you don't trust him 100%.
[Updated on: Sun, 25 March 2007 13:54] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Grand Strategy |
Sun, 25 March 2007 17:36 |
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| Micha | 
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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| Skaffen wrote on Sat, 24 March 2007 15:56 |
5: Narn space, Pak southern border. I have no feel for the dynamics in this area and can´t comment much on it.
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Narn/Pak, there are no dynamics.  Narn is sending colonizers to all planets he likes, the ones close I colonized before he could get there, and they have forts so can't be popdropped.
There are some nice greens for me in "Narn space" but I can't get there cheap enough, so not bothering with them since afterall Narn *will* be on our side in few years ...
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Let´s start with the easy one: 2. Once the shooting starts and the gloves are off, I think the Minbari will be toast. They´re too far away for us to help them, the only way we could do anything would be to recruit them now, give them oberservers and feed them tech so that the shadow alliance will at least have a bit of a fight on their hands. I´d say we do it, I´ve been in contact and if you guys agree I´ll approach them again and offer to join. I hope you can provide another round of observer ships at our W/L-sites
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Since we can say Shadow alliance looks like : Centauri, Dilgar and Independent Mars and Minbari will also be on our side, I'd say feed him tech ...
| Quote: |
What are your thoughts on this? If we can reach the agreement with the shadow alliance it´d free us to deal with Earth unless they can be turned and the eastern block can grow nicely or start fighting against the elder alliance as well, with the Narn in the lead to take the brunt of the attack...
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Personally when joining this game my intension was to never ever join the Shadows ... pak'ma'ra could possibly live with a very passive agreement ...
pak/mch
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| Re: Grand Strategy |
Sun, 25 March 2007 18:08 |
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| Micha |
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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I'm wondering, or contemplating ... Vorlon, Shadow, they both have a goal that concerns eachother, we however are given two goals ...
IOW more work for us, more time to accomplish what we have to do to win the game ...
Shadows seem to be weaker than Vorlons, have worse allies, ... Vorlons should see and know that as well ...
V/S have no need to come to *us*, they can sit and defend, and being stronger if they want some more planets for their econ they can just take them with superior weap power and numbers (no doubt Elders have jihads, their lackeys as well, we are what ... 30 years away from that? 56k research for SPOO!)
Still, they don't *have* to take our planets to grow stronger, they are already strong enough ... Vorlons would/should ignore us, build his fleet of jihad/collodial CCs and go after the Shadow HW ASAP, I'm guessing it would be a rather easy job for him ... use the gates, skip deepspace ...
The slow tech and no cheap techs really stretches the CC era (BB at 75k! for SPOO with normal con tech and at level  , though Vorlon should be able to grab it easier (or have it already) with cheap con. Anyway, past BBs (or even past CCs) there is nothing left to research that warrants the time lost in research and resources spend there instead of ships ...
That is IMHO the winning strategy for Vorlons (or Shadow should he be strong enough), it is needless to them to stretch it any longer ...
... We're prepping for defense? Expecting an attack? That might as well never come ... Would Vorlons spend 10s of jihad CCs to get their minions more planets, take those planets from us, if it takes each of these planets 10 years to get on speed while they can just as well directly focus all their power on just *one* planet ... the Shadow HW ... ?
I'm starting to feel a too great unbalance here ... slow tech+no cheap makes the Elder techtrading too powerfull, combined with the "one target" for the Elders ... the younger, unsupported races would not get the time to develop ... add to that no gate to support eachother by defending their planets en mass, since afterall all they have got is *numbers*, as in more low tech ships ... but now we are too isolated ...
</end rambling>
That's enough doom thinking for today!
mch
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| Re: Grand Strategy |
Sun, 25 March 2007 21:07 |
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| Micha wrote on Mon, 26 March 2007 00:08 |
I'm starting to feel a too great unbalance here ... slow tech+no cheap makes the Elder techtrading too powerfull, combined with the "one target" for the Elders ... the younger, unsupported races would not get the time to develop ... add to that no gate to support eachother by defending their planets en mass, since afterall all they have got is *numbers*, as in more low tech ships ... but now we are too isolated ...
</end rambling>
That's enough doom thinking for today!
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Unfortunately that fits with my thoughts.
While trying to think of a way to not only sit aside and see one of the elders winning, here a wild strat:
Not waiting for BBs and Jihads but massproducing
* baz- or col-CCs
* sapper-CCs
* FFs to explode minefields
* bombers
and gating them to the nearest gate of one of the elders and going straight for the HW.
Actually such a strat isn't very wild and might be even tried by the Elders vs each other.
The tech we could have rather soon, much sooner than the needed ironium. It's a pity that all of us have taken OBRM.
| Skaffen wrote on Sun, 25 March 2007 20:53 |
So I count that as a vote against trying to make peace with the shadows and their allies?
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Mmmh, actually no and yes.
It would had been my first choice to NAP the Centauri/Shadows but look at my message exchange with both of them... they aren't interested. And then there is the lurking question: could we trust in any treaty with the Shadows or their allies?
[Updated on: Sun, 25 March 2007 21:12] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Grand Strategy |
Mon, 26 March 2007 21:17 |
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Part 1: Communication with Shadows that lays possible foundation.
(part 2 will detail with my proposition)
| Shadows wrote In-game message on Sun, 25 March 2007 |
From: The Shadows
To: Everybody
Shadows note that Vorlons are supplying technologies to 5 species and possibly 6. The 5 confirmed species are: Earthlings, Hyak, Ipsha, pak'ma'ra, and SPOOmun Complat. Unconfirmed is trade with the Narn.
Shadows wonder which 2 (or 3) species will be then atttacking Vorlons as part of the Earth Alliance.
Notice to the galactic community - Hyak are a claim adjuster species and are supplying orbital adjuster vessels to many in the listed group - including Vorlons. Be aware of this information.
Shadows...
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| Llort Sent email public email: Monday, March 26, 2007 10:26PM |
Subject: RE: Babylon5 - game balance
I feel a dissertation coming on that won't fit in an in-game window.
Hey, I have an idea...
Why don't we determine the makeup of the 2 Elder alliances as early as possible, deny tech to everyone else i.e. the IA (Interstellar Alliance) &, come 2462, the Elder alliances can slaughter the cannon fodder (read IA). After all, since the IA is weak to start with, would take decades to be a realistic alternative, are required to defeat BOTH Elders not just one in the case of the Elder alliances themselves, why don't the 2 Elder alliances just build lots of high tech CCs &/or BBs & destroy those pesky DD/FF based buggers right away.
The Elder alliances could agree to work together for a while before getting down to the serious business. I might even be prepared to provide gates to facilitate my own doom - I have no taste for a lingering but certain death.
The Shadows are right. Clearly at least 2 races are getting tech that will eventually belong to the IA. The Vorlons are to be congratulated for that!! The Shadows see no value in the IA whatsoever & are obviously happy if the independant races work with the Vorlons in whatever small way they can.
John/Llort
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| Shadows Sent email to Llort: Monday, March 26, 2007 11:11PM |
Subject: RE: Babylon5 - game balance
To be honest,
I think the ethics of the Vorlons supplying tech to so many races is questionable in itself. Shadows read the rules to be set up in such a way that the Elder races should recruit 3 allies – supplying them with tech. The Shadows and Vorlons actually aren’t supposed to care so much about the IA – the only way they win is through the destruction of the other one.
Kind Regards,
Ptolemy
Emperor of a Thousand Suns
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| Llort Sent email public email: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 12:13AM |
Subject: RE: Babylon5 - game balance
Certainly not the way I envisaged it. Why have an IA at all if they are supposed to play no role. No tech support = no way of ever developing enough strength to matter. The only way the IA can play a role of any sort is to develop a relationship with an Elder alliance involving tech support and maybe, given 30-40 years, in the unlikely case that both Elder alliance still exist, the IA might have a 1-2% chance of wining (remembering we have to defeat both Elders).
John/Llort
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| Shadows Sent email to Llort: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 2:27 AM |
Subject: RE: Babylon5 - game balance
Aye, that’s so,
However, you have Eldar races restricted to 10 planets – no guarantee they are going to even find 10 greens (Shadows certainly haven’t). Given the 30 year growth period of pretty much un-opposed expansion, most races should be able to hit around 15k resources in that time. The Elders won’t have that without about five 100% green worlds (that they aren’t going to have). IA races will surpass Eldar tech easily 10 turns later. The way the game is set up, the Vorlons have a huge edge over the Shadows since they can much easier grow pop to populate worlds to 300% capacity. Now, throw in free terraforming of a CA on the Vorlons side and you’ve probably killed Shadows already – Using a TT CA (and TT was not banned for CA), it now increases potential green planets for Vorlons by a massive 30% before tech 16 is reached. Not only that, but with a dozen orbital adjusters, worlds that will take Shadows 12+ years to terraform get done in one turn for the Vorlons giving them a green world.
I don’t see defeating the Shadows to be difficult for the Vorlons or the IA – all they have to do is hit the HW’s and orbit them to win.
Kind Regards,
Ptolemy
Emperor of a Thousand Suns
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| Re: Grand Strategy |
Mon, 26 March 2007 22:34 |
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The Premise: We wish to maximise our chance of winning this game.
Mindset: Since there is no chance whatsoever of a “decisive” victory (an individual younger race defeats both Elders) we are playing to win as an alliance – nothing more, nothing less. We, therefore, need to forget prejudices & work together in whatever way we can (without breaking agreements – i.e. no backstabbing) to realise the premise.
Proposition:
The communication between the Shadows & Llort presents the possibility that we can make a deal.
If we can convince the Shadows that their chances of winning are not too bright as things stand (they’ve more or less said that themselves) we may be able to get that deal something along these lines:
1. Shadows provide tech to the IA (or part thereof).
2. Shadows & their followers agree a NAP – length to be determined, maybe until the Vorlons are defeated (see below).
3. Shadows provide other help as possible – eg. Robber Barons, Galleon overcloakers or whatever (ideas?) [nice but needn’t be a condition]
4. The IA makes a secret agreement with an expiry date to work towards the defeat of the Vorlons in exchange for the above.
5. They are unlikely to agree with this initially but, at some point they may find it necessary: Once we have sufficient strength to matter we agree to a combined attack on Abel with the IA getting credit for the kill followed by a period of peace to allow both sides to regroup & then it’s a fight between the Shadows & the IA with a limited period in which the IA can achieve victory – if the IA cannot achieve victory within the agreed period then the IA concede & the Shadows win.
A thought: If the Vorlons are defeated by the IA (or kill credited to IA) I assume the leaderless Vorlon followers become part of the IA. Not something that should be talked about in case the Shadows overlook that.
That’s the crux of it – I will shortly write a proposed message to the Shadows.
Opinions?
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| Re: Grand Strategy |
Mon, 26 March 2007 23:15 |
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Proposed message to the Shadows. Feel free to suggest changes, additions or even to rewrite it.| Quote: |
Greeting to the Great Shadow Elders,
I definitely agree wholeheartedly that the Vorlons have a massive advantage but maybe it’s not too late to redress that somewhat?
I, for one, foresaw the problem nearly 20 years ago when I saw that the Vorlons had 2 JOATs & a CA forming a semi-circle north of their HW. I sent two (admittedly unspecific) messages to attempt an accord but without reply.
Are you willing to talk with me on behalf of the likely IA (no risk that I won’t be one of them) to discuss possible ways of helping each other.
At the moment the only help coming to the IA is from the Vorlons. If you are willing to give us help then we are not dumb – we know where the greater danger is.
Are you willing to provide tech & instigate talks aimed at stopping the bickering between your followers & other independent races? What would you want in return?
Llort Mi-Ma-Ti
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| Re: Grand Strategy |
Tue, 27 March 2007 08:04 |
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| Skaffen wrote on Tue, 27 March 2007 06:40 |
| Quote: |
most races should be able to hit around 15k resources in that time.
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What is he smoking? I assume you´re going to write something about galactic Realpolitik and what the rough resource level at the moment is?
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NO!
Let him think that we are stronger than we are. Certainly do not give him a hint how strong or weak we are.
About strat:
After having seen the Gaim jump to rank 3 without much tech and with what points... the field is quite close together. Which basically means, Ipsha and Hyak aren't as good as we thought.
Thus I've changed my mind: the situation is not hopeless *grin
And even if we are given no more tech from the elders, we can get it from shooting down ships or making a small invasion here and there. And if we are lucky, the elders+allies keep each other occupied after 2463 and giving us time to outgrow them.
About the communication with the Shadows: from my point of view it can be sent as is.
I'll send my message ingame as well (see Shadow alliance: communication). It can only help if he gets the main thoughts twice from different sides in different words.
[Updated on: Tue, 27 March 2007 08:36] Report message to a moderator
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