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[Updated on: Thu, 29 March 2007 18:59]

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[Updated on: Sun, 01 April 2007 07:39] by Moderator

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Time begins to run short and thus I jumped forward and sent an email to the Vorlons about the NAP.

As mentioned in the email, a border still needs to be worked out for the West but that should be surely done not by me.

--------------------
[to Vorlons]
[copy to Gaim, Llort, Pak'ma'ra]
[copy to Ipsha, Hyak, Earth]

Greetings,

well, hopefully we can keep it simple, otherwise a NAP-treaty involving 8 parties might get quite complicated.

> Vorlons:
> Having consulted with my team, the NAP that I was going to offer from Me to
> you (Pac and Spoo) I am happy to extend to cover my team of 4 (me, Earth,
> Ipsha, Hyak) to you (Pac, Spoo, Gaim, Llort).

Sounds good.

> Vorlons:
> However there is very little chance that we could be brought to sign a NAP
> with the Drakh, from the start they have attacked and impinged on our
> territory. I consider them to be Shadow touched and intend to wipe them
> from the Universe. As for your comments on my Fleet heading for the Drack homeworld, I
> understand and I do appreciate your attempts to find me another tempting
> target, but I feel such a small fleet would swiftly be defeated in Shadow
> held space.

It was an honest offer and we were sure that your fleet would had been able to strike a devasting blow against the Shadows plus getting yourself into a superb position vs the Shadows' allies. To ensure your position we could had talked even about free passage for some LFs with Vorlon colonists. Well, perhaps you might want to reconsider our offer. Drakh are surely not Shadow touched but having this said, I think it might be best to keep this affair out of the NAP-discussion for now.

Here our suggestion for the East. I tried to include the de facto intersettling status.

NAP
===
Cancel time: 5 years.

involved parties:
# Vorlon plus allies: Hyak, Ipsha, Earth
# Pak'ma'ra, SPOOmun Complat, Gaim, Llort

Borders:
(a map is attached to visualize the borders)
# a line from Chub/Rubber(Hyak) thru Oshun (Vorlon) to Abacus/Pluto (Pak'ma'ra) to Mountbatten (neutral)
# Vorlons+allies may not colonise/conquere east and north of this borders
# Pak'ma'ra, SPOOmun Complat may not colonise/conquere west and south of this borders

Exceptions:
# the existing Hyak colonies: Alcoa, LGM 1, Hoe, Oop Be Gone, Albemuth, Emerald
# the existing Ipsha colony: Rhenium
# Pak'ma'ra and SPOOmun Complat may announce an equal number of exceptions in the space of Vorlon+allies
# btw: planet Hammer would be in our space (Hyak and Spoo have colonizers heading for Hammer at the moment)

Minefields are a problem in the intersettling area. To keep it simple, minefields may be layed only around owned planets but also swept without big blabla if a player feels that it's needed. On the map this area is between the red and blue lines.

We will need something similar for the West but due to the "complicated" situation there, it is probably best if Gaim/Llort and Earth/Vorlon talk about it directly.

Regards,
Patrick (SPOOmun Complat)

PS: SPOO can understand and accepts the Vorlons' wish to have a scout in orbit of Callipus and Homer but would like to ask not to make a habit of it in orbit of other planets.

MAP:
orange: shadows
pink: vorlons
yellow: gate

dark blue: pak
lime: spoo

weird blue: ipsha
dark green; hyak

[Updated on: Mon, 02 April 2007 15:12]

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First answere from Vorlons about NAP

I havent finished discussing this with my allies (been a busy week). Your boarder is a starting point but it is drawn at the wrong point. I would be happier with Rubber - Oop Be Gone - Kan If there are loads of exceptions (as there were in your proposal) then it tells me that the boarder is drawn in the wrong place. We will get back to you with a concrete proposal soon. Vorlons

Let's see how the final answere looks like before answering the Vorlons. After all by now we aren't even sure wether we should really go for the NAP.

For comparison reasons, in white the border as suggested by the Vorlons:

[Updated on: Thu, 05 April 2007 19:23]

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This is the conversation between Eathlings (as Vorlon representative) & Llort

My next response could be (speaking for the IA):
1. No longer interested
2. Let's see how you treat the IA for a while. At this stage we observe a degree of greed on the part of the Vorlon alliance, particulary in east.
3. (after the SPOO actions this year) Suggest a 5 year NAP (no fixed period) with fair to generous borders for us. Take it or leave it.
4. As for (3) without the "take it or leave it" ultimatum.
5. Other siggestions

Opinions?

Earthlings wrote on Wed, 04 April 2007 10:12

Subject: Re: Babylon5 new Era Hi, I'm pleased to announce that the Vorlons, much pressed with other urgent matters elsewhere, have delegated to me the noble task of crafting a new NAP agreement between the Earthlings/Ipsha and the Llort/Gaim races, as part of the overall entente between the Independent Alliance and the LightBringers. That said, it is not without a certain degree of alarm that the Earthlings watch the renewed friendship between the Llort/Gaim and the hostile Drakh. You must be aware by now that the LightBringers view the Drakh, if not as a true Shadow Minion, then at least as a very misguided, very dangerous chaotic race, also pursuing their own version of the Shadow's agenda of death and destruction. That we cannot tolerate. But, once the Drakh threat is neutered, we envision a high chance of a renewed cooperation against the danger of the Shadow-enslaved Martians in the North. Unless you actually want to turn your back on them and focus all your efforts in the colonization of the southern expanses which we so generously left open for you, that is. I'll welcome your comments and suggestions on these and any other matters of interest, Later,

Llort wrote on Fri, 06 April 2007 10:58

Subject: Re: Babylon5 new Era Greetings, Sorry so long - too much to do, too little time. Just a few points: 1. Why wouldn't we have renewed our friendship with the Drakh? The Vorlons refused tangible help so there was no reason to do otherwise. While we can do little to help them against the big bad Vorlon fleet it would be reprehensible & cowardly to simply discard them without an excellent reason. The Drakh have not directly harmed us in any way tho we do consider them to be politically inept. 2. Like Drakh's actions or not the regulations say that all races not part of the Shadow & Vorlon alliances form the Interstellar Alliance. Frankly, we consider the Earthlings to be a wiser and more responsible people but we cannot abide blackmail. 3. In order to turn our backs on the Drakh completely we would need a significant inducement such as a border agreement that includes over half of the current Drakh space (based upon distances from Smorgasbord/Doris & with exceptions for already colonised planets - you get Smorgasbord). We need to arrive at an agreement shortly though since the imminent destruction facing the Drakh is only 3 years from our own Llort HW & the Gaim, I'm sure, are not keen to be the sandwich between the Shadow & Vorlon alliances. If no agreement is reached we will do what we must to avoid our own extinction. Regards, John/Llort Mi-Ma-Ti

Earthlings wrote on Fri, 06 April 2007 21:06

Subject: Re: Babylon5 new Era Hail, 1. Why wouldn't we have renewed our friendship with the Drakh? The Vorlons refused tangible help so there was no reason to do otherwise. While we can do little to help them against the big bad Vorlon fleet it would be reprehensible & cowardly to simply discard them without an excellent reason. The Drakh have not directly harmed us in any way tho we do consider them to be politically inept. We understand your position. You must remember, though, that the Drakh have already harmed you, by greatly undermining the LightBringers' trust in their friends the Llort and the Gaim. And trust, I'm afraid, is of crucial importance if we want to reach an agreement which allows us to help you against the Shadows' onslaught. 2. Like Drakh's actions or not the regulations say that all races not part of the Shadow & Vorlon alliances form the Interstellar Alliance. Frankly, we consider the Earthlings to be a wiser and more responsible people but we cannot abide blackmail. Fortunately the Drakh themselves will soon cease to be a concern. We frankly believe the IA will be better off without so rude and unreliable associate. :-} 3. In order to turn our backs on the Drakh completely we would need a significant inducement such as a border agreement that includes over half of the current Drakh space (based upon distances from Smorgasbord/Doris & with exceptions for already colonised planets - you get Smorgasbord). Now this is a mostly unexpected proposal. Would you mind to advance some more details about it? Specifically, what part of Drakh space interests you, and how do you propose their scattered outposts (other than their HW) shall be dealt with. We need to arrive at an agreement shortly though since the imminent destruction facing the Drakh is only 3 years from our own Llort HW & the Gaim, I'm sure, are not keen to be the sandwich between the Shadow & Vorlon alliances. If no agreement is reached we will do what we must to avoid our own extinction. You are already doing it: talking, instead of just blindly attacking, as those wild Drakh did. While we cannot promise a thing about the evil Shadows and their Minions, rest assured that the LightBringers have priorities of greater importance than harass you, and indeed we would like to help you overturn those Shadow slaves, the Martians, as swiftly as possible. We hope you'll do all that's in your hand to erase what suspicions have arisen between our great peoples, so we can be sure that the help we send you will not be turned against ourselves at the first opportunity. Our position should be easy to understand, too. Expecting your news soon, Cheers,

Llort wrote on Thu, 12 April 2007 8:42

Subject: Re: Babylon5 new Era Greetings, The IA has engaged in a lot of discussion on the matter of the proposed NAP. Basically, our democratic collection has decided that: 1. We are still interested but are disappointed that the Vorlons promised a follow up which has not eventuated 2. We are not interested in a NAP that does not involve the entire core IA (Gaim, Llort, SPOO, Pak). 3. We have decided that it would be wrong to jettison the Drakh entirely. We await the Earthling (as authorised representative of the entire Vorlon alliance) or the Vorlon response. Cheers, Llort Mi-Ma-Ti

Earthlings wrote on Thu, 12 April 2007 10:42

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Babylon5 new Era Hail, 1. We are still interested but are disappointed that the Vorlons promised a follow up which has not eventuated As has been already stated, any Vorlon or Lightbringer help must necessarily come after a suitable agreeement has been reached, and not before. 2. We are not interested in a NAP that does not involve the entire core IA (Gaim, Llort, SPOO, Pak). Far as I know, Spoo and Pak are already hammering out a NAP in the East. Should be easy to combine both efforts once they've been agreed, unless we want to dither and bicker for another couple weeks. 3. We have decided that it would be wrong to jettison the Drakh entirely. Well, you proposed splitting their space among the four of us, so nothing would be jettisoned actually. So, what would be your new proposal?

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Hyaks wrote an email to Spoo, I've embedded my answere.

The important part is in the last paragraphs where I am basically stating that there can't really be a NAP without the West... although I excluded the Drakh.

Excluding the Drakh... because there won't be an agreement with the Vorlons including the Drakh. Thus the only alternative including the Drakh is no agreement at all but fighting and this is a decision we have to make and doesn't need to be discussed with the Vorlons/allies.

2465: email communciation between Hyak and Spoo

Greets Robert, hello Micha, I am replying directly while including Micha at the same time. > Robert Liang <officeaction@gmail.com>: > Greetings > > Msg received about the lack of a formal agreement. > > [MA wanted to do the negotiation on behalf of our alliance and so was > appointed negotiator (I don't see how he found the time).] > > If Spoomuns are agreeable, the Hyak would like to come to an agreement with > the Spoomuns pending a formal agreement btw V and IA, if this ever happens. > This agreement would only apply between the Hyak and Spoomun (and whoever > else wants in). > > While it may be an interesting power trip taking down the IA, it does not > directly affect our goal and is of very limited interest to the Hyak. Yes, I think we had established that already before > Narn > space is necessary only for our econ expansion to maintain our edge. Our > preference is to take Shadow planets for this purpose. With the destruction > of the Narn Home fleet this turn, the Narns as a power will end in a few > turns - based on the deduced attributes of the Narn race with their very > wide hab range, I think the Hyak did a favour for the IA. Well, let's say, the Hyaks were a bit faster arriving at the Narn HW than the SPOOmun Complat. But we can't imagine that this did somehow influence the Hyak deployment of fleets > The following proposal is an update to our agreement with Paks - NAP with 5 > yr notice period > > 1) Applies to Eastern half of the universe - the Hyak are not in the > Western half. > > 2) East-West border at the Hoe cluster subject to a few planets South of > the border - we have some flexibility about the planets - I believe the > Spoomuns have taken two Narn colonies which could be very green for the > Spoomuns but not the Hyaks. East-West border at Hoe? Could it be you mean south-north border? Mmh, perhaps both. Well, whatever it be, we have quite some intersettling in the centre (roughly Alcoa to Pluto)... I think since all sides know exactly which planets are colonised by whom, we just leave it there as it is and Vorlon alliance won't push further east, Pak'ma'ra and SPOOmun won't push further west. There are only 2 planets left for colonisation: Timbuktu and Hope, the former can go to V+, the latter to Pak. Narn territory: While the Spoomun Complat have looked with delight onto the beautiful meadows of Putty since ages and SPOO itself finished each prayer with the declamation: "And Putty will be mine!", a sudden and recent philosophical insight has changed SPOO's opinion to "But Putty might become Hyaks'!" followed by a deeply felt sigh: "And the Emerald cluster already is." The SPOOmun Complat won't hinder your expansion in that area but would like to see it also established as a border: Hyaks and V+ no further north, Spoo/Pak no further south. And as a kind of exile we suggest to leave the Timoshenko cluster to the Narn, Spoo will retreat again from Simple. > 3) Space under Shadowland influence - wherever that may be - is free space > for anyone to take. Certainly. > 4) No armed Spoomun ships may be South of the border (except for certain > planets and passage thereto and therefo) Exceptions would be Humus and Kan for the Spoo. > and No ships whatsoever within 300 > lyrs of Abel. The few Spoo-scouts somehow still within such a 300ly-rad are already heading out at max speed. > 5) Right of passage through your space to get to Shadowland (the Hyak have > to be set as friend). Mmmh, I fear we must say the same what we told the Shadows: due to the devasting depressive effect of the SPOO-sighs, the whole Complat territory is too dangerous for the mental health of non-Spoo-pilots. Even the hulls of ships shatter when hit by this special sonic attack. And since there are no Shadow settlements north of the Spoomun Complat territory, there is probably no need for free passage anyway. And the Skidmark cluster is better reached thru the centre. > Optional terms: > > 6) In exchange for Intel, i.e. the detection of Shadow ships by the > Spoomun network, the Hyak will agree to provide terraforming services (3 > OAs). > > 7) Trading of OAs for long range pen scanner ships (TBA). Excuse our ignorance, what's TBA referring to? In general, the Spoomun Complat thinks it is rather easy to settle for an agreement covering the east. The problem we see is rather the west and the vast V+ deployment of fleets in that area. To our regret we do see a problem in a NAP for the East while the West (talking about Llort and Gaim, not necessarily the Drakh) is getting attacked and reduced. After having read how especially Earth and Llort "try" to negotiate with each other, we would like to offer our help in establishing a lasting peace also for the West. Perhaps it might be helpful, if the East tries to negotiate something? What would be the V+ position about a NAP including the West? Regards, SPOOmun Complat

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I was in a hurry. Sorry, when my comment sounded a bit rude... well, when rereading it I think it was rather rude.


At the moment it looks like within the Vorlon alliance those have the upper hand who think they should go directly vs the Shadows.

But as we have seen this attitude can change rather fast to "Let's kill off the IA first and then mob up the North".

While we do know that we can't really allow the Vorlon alliance to grow on, with all the warfleets we can see at the moment, we don't have a chance but to slow them down just a bit. That we have slowed them down vs the Drakh and Narn and that we have shown our willingness to fight... was quite important because it strengthened the "Don't get distracted with the IA - they aren't important"-opinion.

To cut it short:
Any agreement with the Vorlon alliance must make it easy for them to get to the Shadow alliance. Your suggested border cuts them off from the Shadows which leaves them whom to attack... us.

Thus the initial map of Andreas is still true. We must leave an easy corridor in the centre for the Vorlon alliance to pass thru.


And it's of no use to fight or negotiate for planets you have no chance of even somehow to defend. If it would be just Spoomun Complat I would easily give up my centre planets west of Ursa. But the Pak do need those planets there for development and without a kind of neutral zone Micha's HW is a bit too exposed which is the sole reason I am trying to negoitate a narrow intersettlement area in the centre.

Here a map with borders I would suggest:


From south to north thats a border going thru:
Evergreen - Zucchini - Astair - Gornic - Prude

Llort planets in the centre: as is and no more
Llort doesn't lay minefields in the centre

This gives you the space you really possess and would fight for... vice versa Vorlons know to push for more they would have to fight for it.

And you don't give them free passage by setting them to friend because Vorlons plus allies have a wide corridor to push north, unhindered by minefields.

[Updated on: Thu, 19 April 2007 13:40]

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[Updated on: Thu, 19 April 2007 20:48]

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