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WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 01 March 2007 08:57 Go to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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In normal game WM seems to lose nearly all advantages, when nubs appear.
But if Nubs are forbidden, how good is WM?
Can WM take due to the advantages of BC and DN take a twice as large JOAT or is the advantage lesser?

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 01 March 2007 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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I don't think that it is possible to answere such a question.

Certainly too much relies on many other factors: skill, allies, location...

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 01 March 2007 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
velvetthroat57 is currently offline velvetthroat57

 
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Carn wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 08:57

In normal game WM seems to lose nearly all advantages, when nubs appear.
But if Nubs are forbidden, how good is WM?


WM is certainly better off in this case. The DN hull will rule the battlefield but whatever design you decide to use, the enemy can probably counter it at 2-1 with BBs.

Also interesting would be WM in a game with mandatory BET. Then the DN hull would be quite cheap while the nubs are forever 2x cost.

Quote:

Can WM take due to the advantages of BC and DN take a twice as large JOAT or is the advantage lesser?


You have to assume a great deal to make this kind of comparison but I would say the advantage is less than this. If a JOAT is twice your size, then he will presumably have access to better tech. Also your economy is probably more fragile than his so that if you trade blows, your economy will be hurt more as each of you targets the others worlds. Finally, he is probably a better player to have gained that much of an advantage in economy although some people are good at the econ aspect and not some much in the war fighting.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 01 March 2007 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Carn wrote on Thu, 01 March 2007 14:57

But if Nubs are forbidden, how good is WM?

Excelent, if on attack, as usual. Slightly less weak on defense as usual.

If nubian hull is forbidden, nothing beats Dreadnaught pound for pound. Just slightly more expensive than BB and with significantly more slots like BB. Add there the WM's 25% discount on weapons and 0.5 battle speed bonus, and the pound for pound comparisson becomes even nastier.

Quote:

Can WM take due to the advantages of BC and DN take a twice as large JOAT or is the advantage lesser?

Only in very special circumstances, like in late game the WM in a surprise attack with a perfectly tailored fleet kills the main fleet of JoaT, and losses only support ships (chaff, shredders...). In other situations IMO almost impossible. Double the size means double the minerals, twice as fast ship production, and twice the strategic depth the WM should travel. And when the planet killing starts, will the WM lose his planets twice as fast as JoaT.

BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 14:37]

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 01 March 2007 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Quote:

Can WM take due to the advantages of BC and DN take a twice as large JOAT or is the advantage lesser?


The answer of course is, "It depends."

If the JoaT is twice as large in number of planets, but not in econ, say a -f with many crappy planets, that is very different than a JoaT who has twice as many planets and twice the econ. What else the JoaT has going on is also very important; a JoaT with twice the econ, but currently fighting a war with another powerful race is very different from one who has decided that since he's got nothing else to do he might as well take your planets.

Which brings another set of factors: who is attacking whom. If you are the one doing the attacking then you have a decent chance, but WMs do not play defense well even without the presence of Nubs. If you can build a fleet or fleets of DN/BC/bombers without your JoaT targets awareness of the size of your build up then you have the chance to deal him some crippling blows in the early stages of your offensive.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 01 March 2007 17:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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I'll hazard a guess at a slightly more controlled situation...

1 v 1
Factoried v factoried
Balanced player ability
Both players are expecting war

I think if the JOAT:WM economy ratio is:
2:1 - The WM loses. Badly.
1:1 - The JOAT loses.
3:2 - Harder to call... I think the JOAT will win, as long as he manages to engage WM worlds. Minefields and penscanning chaff will prove critical. If the JOAT loses the edge these give him at the start of the war, then he will likely lose.


[Updated on: Thu, 01 March 2007 17:37]

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sat, 07 June 2008 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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no


By the time you realize how steep the curve is, you will be using five types of calculus to get to the market. You will then need three different calculators to perform what you once considered basic arithmetic.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sat, 07 June 2008 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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A WM who is only marginally econ minded should
A) Start wars before the econ races are ready

B) impact neighboring econ races before they can achieve an econ win.
C) have captured the above cherries early enough to become an econ contender
D) achieve winning condition before there are 125/#players more Nubs than (50DN + 1/7 WM BB over 1/5 other BB) assuming they are all building counters to the WM designs rather than making them pretty


Thus Nubs should not matter to a WM. The DN give more options for offense and the nubs cost 1/2 as much. If a WM is playing right she will get newbs soon after the opponent from combat. That tech makes DNs much less expensive.



By the time you realize how steep the curve is, you will be using five types of calculus to get to the market. You will then need three different calculators to perform what you once considered basic arithmetic.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 10 June 2008 07:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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neilhoward wrote on Sun, 08 June 2008 08:25


... If a WM is playing right she will get newbs soon after the opponent from combat. That tech makes DNs much less expensive ...

Newbs being nubs? Wink

Quote:

B) impact neighboring econ races before they can achieve an econ win.

Yes, I love the aggressive WM that goes around attacking every man and his dog so that everyone allies against them and then they die. Smile

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 10 June 2008 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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neilhoward wrote on Sat, 07 June 2008 18:55

Thus Nubs should not matter to a WM. The DN give more options for offense and the nubs cost 1/2 as much. If a WM is playing right she will get newbs soon after the opponent from combat. That tech makes DNs much less expensive.


DNs are heavy & lack flexibility compared to nubs. The nubs should win if the design is right. Take beam ships:

1. DN with AMP. The nubs will use MegaD/Synchro & get 2 free shots before being cornered because the nubs always move last.

2. DN with MegaD/Synchro. The nubs will use AMP + 3 Nexus (to overcome the DN init advantage) & get in the first shot assuming that the BS of the DN/nub combo is appropriate - i.e. they move last & get within range in the same round. The Nub weaponry is way more powerful so that first shot is devastating.

Then the nubs can have, say, 12 BDs (& 9 caps) meaning that they hit hard while deflecting 46% of the DN fire. The nubs also gate without damage, are much cheaper & can form bigger stacks.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 10 June 2008 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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And then your AMP nubs get trashed by the 38-missile boats. Your point?

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 10 June 2008 22:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 10 June 2008 19:05

And then your AMP nubs get trashed by the 38-missile boats. Your point?


The point is that your 38 missile boats are firing at chaff. In addition, I've naturally got missile boats too & once your ships are sapped they will fire at your DNs. My chaff will probably never get fried because your beamers are shredded.

Are you seriously suggesting that DNs are a match for Nubs given fleets of a similar cost?? Shocked

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 00:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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No, I'm suggesting they're more than a match for them. Consider: twice as many slots for the same hull price, plus 25% discount on weaps, plus 8 free init, plus good speed without overthrusters. Of course, Nubs have the advantage of unlimited electricals, and BDs, but those can only go so far.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 03:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 11 June 2008 06:59

No, I'm suggesting they're more than a match for them. Consider: twice as many slots for the same hull price, plus 25% discount on weaps, plus 8 free init, plus good speed without overthrusters. Of course, Nubs have the advantage of unlimited electricals, and BDs, but those can only go so far.

Ah, but the other is WM as well of course if you want to compare! Wink So also discount (matters less, since nub won't mount as many weapons) and also speed.
As for defs going "only so far", they can go a looong way. Wink Every def diminishes that huge firepower by 10%, there is no cap like with eny capacitators ...

A lot will of course depend on fleet design as well. Chaff, anti-chaff, anti-anti-chaff, battle orders (disengaging missile boats), specific designs, counter designs etc.
Possible solution, take two identical races and with same resources and minerals deisgn a DN and a nub beamer, let them fight it out.

BTW, this discussion is one of the ever recurring threads, and always fun. Smile

mch

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 08:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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By "only going so far", I'm pointing out the obvious consequence of putting too many defs on your Nub beamers.

WM nubs are good, especially for beamers, in which case they have an advantage, though minor (DNs can still mount 4 caps and 2 defs with decent jamming). Missile ships there is no contest.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 09:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 11 June 2008 14:59

Missile ships there is no contest.

On that we agree. Smile DN missile boats rule! wOOt 2

DNs I would probably still use as dedicated shield sappers or chaff killers. You want FIREPOWER there ... in that first shot ... and than let them die ...
For my beamer force (+300-1000 or more ships depending on game) I'd go nubs even when being DN.

mch

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Nubs have serious advantages over DNs for beamers. You really can't overestimate the value of loading up with deflectors, while the DNs can have two deflectors at most. Plus the Nubs are way cheaper than DNs, (DN base costs: Ir=123, Br=26, Gr=22, Rsrc=242 vs. Nub: Ir=75, Br=12, Gr=12, Rsrc=150) so you can overwhelm the beam DNs with highly deflected and large shield pooled stacks of AMP Nubs. You don't need to jam the Nubs because your chaff jam for them. Plus you can gate the Nubs with no damage, something you won't manage with the DN unless you are gating through an allied IT's gates.

While the DN does make a better missile platform this is less relevant by the time Nubs are available because the economics of the end game tend to rule out viably producing effective numbers of missile boats relative to producing beamers, particularly given massive amounts of chaff. And again there is the issue of gating, which is significant in the end game unless you are playing defense on a decreasing front, in which case a WM is screwed anyway.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
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So basically, in a team game with an AR and IT ally, the DN is king Very Happy

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Nubian vs Dreadnaught Wed, 11 June 2008 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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There are two older threads in the WM group about Nubians vs Dreadnaughts

http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=305 7
http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=108 3




- LEit

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Thu, 12 June 2008 00:35

Nubs have serious advantages over DNs for beamers. You really can't overestimate the value of loading up with deflectors, while the DNs can have two deflectors at most. Plus the Nubs are way cheaper than DNs, (DN base costs: Ir=123, Br=26, Gr=22, Rsrc=242 vs. Nub: Ir=75, Br=12, Gr=12, Rsrc=150) so you can overwhelm the beam DNs with highly deflected and large shield pooled stacks of AMP Nubs. You don't need to jam the Nubs because your chaff jam for them. Plus you can gate the Nubs with no damage, something you won't manage with the DN unless you are gating through an allied IT's gates.

While the DN does make a better missile platform this is less relevant by the time Nubs are available because the economics of the end game tend to rule out viably producing effective numbers of missile boats relative to producing beamers, particularly given massive amounts of chaff. And again there is the issue of gating, which is significant in the end game unless you are playing defense on a decreasing front, in which case a WM is screwed anyway.


Objection: a DN hull's cost with full miniaturisation (which there will be if you're comparing to Nubs) is 84I, 18B, 15G, 165R. Not substantially greater than that of a Nubian. A decked out beamer DN has almost identical Iron cost to a decked out beamer nub, and similar Germanium cost too. The difference is the gigantic Boron and resource cost of such a DN, because of the 38 AMPs. And it has significantly more firepower to make up for the 4-7 less defs it has.

Edit: I agree that Nubs have their place in a WM fleet, but I'm simply saying that DNs are right up there too.


[Updated on: Wed, 11 June 2008 19:14]

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 21:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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I havn't done it, but I expect if you compared iron cost per kill, you'd find that the nubians win fairly easily. In other words, how many DNs does it take to kill a nubian, vs how many nubians does it take to kill a DN, all in one round.


- LEit

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Wed, 11 June 2008 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Okay, here are the calcs.

Nub design = Trans-star, 3 AMP, 3 cap, 3 CPS, 3 def
DN design = Trans-star, organic, CPS, 38 AMP, 8 cap, 2 def.
Miniaturised to full, with non-BET WM.

Damage (nubian) = 9189
Damage (nubian vs. DN) = 7443

Damage (DN) = 35271
Damage (DN vs. Nubian) = 13665

HP (DN) = 9900
HP (nubian) = 9500

Iron (DN) = 179
Iron (nubian) = 174

Res (DN) = 1196
Res (Nubian) = 546

Basically put, iron for iron they'll be equal, and one DN will easily kill one nubian in one shot, and have more init.

DN wins easily, in other words.

However, I do think there is still a place for nubs in a WM's fleet, to fill the role of a gateable defense fleet.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 12 June 2008 01:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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Your DN has speed 2.25, which may be a problem in some cases, it will take 4 rounds to reach the last row, whereas speed 2.5 will take only 3 rounds. Also neither design has any jamming, wich will really hurt when chaff is gone.

Also, a nubian shouldn't have 3 CPS nor 3 AMP, 2 of each is enough if you have RS (and most WMs should). If you don't have RS, I actually think you should go for 1 CPS, don't try to match shields, go for cheap.

Anyway, 4 jammers to the DN and dropping the organic armor (making it easier to gate and saving germanium), and comparing them to a 4 slot deflector nubian, the DN is still better, especially if you include init. But the Nubian has speed 2.5, and is easily gatable, much cheaper in resources and bora to build.

Here's an arbitrary formula for the late game cost of a ship: 10 times iron cost, 1 times bora cost, 5 times germ cost, and 1 times resource. By that metric and with 1000 nubians to 625 DNs (same cost by that formula), according to my battle by excel... the Nubians win, with 579 nubians left.

This is actually much better for the DNs then I'd expected, and if I ever have a WM in a late game fight that's even, I'll actually have to think about DN vs nubian.

I'm sorry I changed the criteria from what I'd asked at first, but the other minerals and resources do have some impact - and the results seemed a bit wrong. I'd still use nubians if there was no existing fleet. But given that you'll be able to build the DNs first, keeping with the same design is a large consideration.



- LEit

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 12 June 2008 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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Why would I throw away one of my key advantages (moving last). If your DN is equiped with AMPs then my Nub uses MegaD/SS - if your DN is equiped with MegaD/SS then my nub uses AMP.

The following is a "cost per kill" analysis also using max. minimisation, no BET. Note that the nub designs are not necessarily the best ones, they are just my gut feelings:

DN AMP: Trans-star, 8 CPS, 8 Org, 38 AMP, 8 cap, 2 def. Cost (I/B/G/R): 179/664/162/1196
Nub MegaD/SS: Trans-star, 3 CPS, 9 MegaD, 3 SS, 9 cap, 2 MJ,9 def. Cost (I/B/G/R): 116/237/116/562

# Nubs needed to destroy 50 DN = 54 (10 Survive}. Note that the 10 Survivers are included in the cost as if lost:

Cost per DN destroyed: 125.3/356/125.3/607
Cost per DN: 179/664/162/1196

DN MegaD/SS: Trans-star, 8 CPS, 8 Org, 28 MegaD, 10 SS, 8 cap, 2 def. Cost (I/B/G/R): 179/550/212/1116
Nub AMP: Trans-star, 3 CPS, 6 AMP, 9 cap, 2 MJ,3 Nexus, 12 def. Cost (I/B/G/R): 116/144/170/460

# Nubs needed to destroy 50 DN = 59 (8 Survive}. Note that the 8 Survivers are included in the cost as if lost:

Cost per DN destroyed: 136.9/169.9/200.6/542.8
Cost per DN: 179/550/212/1116

The nubs are cheaper in every respect.

Also, mineral crunches occur for Bora too, not just Iron (& Germ).

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 12 June 2008 02:33 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Objection: of course DNs can be counterdesigned by nubians. I never said they couldn't be. However, that doesn't do anything about the fact that AMP DNs will kill AMP nubs where iron is limiting. Also, MegaD DNs will kill MegaD nubs.

Also, if I do choose to go with MegaD DNs, I may well put on a slot of nexi to outinit you again, and you die.

You've forgotten that I can counterdesign just as fast as you can, the only difference being that if you out-counter-design me in a battle, you still lose most ships, whereas if I out-counter-design you, I win with 50% still alive. You can't just say "I'll always have the design which is best for killing you" because despite the mobility advantages of Nubs, I can still often trick you. And of course, we're talking DN vs. WM nub here, for non-WM nub both will win, with DN probably taking less casualties due to higher divisor.

@LEit: The organic armour was put on because I wouldn't be gating DNs anyway, and it only costs 1kT germ and 5 res each.

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