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Hmm... All this reminds me of why I dislike/hate cruiser hull. (I often do not take RS). I canna put enough organic armour on it to make it cost effective against organic destroyer with basookas/sapper (r3phaser/sapper even). Cruiser can't match the cost effectiveness and agility of simple and humble destroyer. That ain't good if you ask me... (untill missiles come along AND that's when you don't field chaff with yea fleet).

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iztok wrote on Sun, 25 January 2004 20:04

Hi! Kotk wrote on Sun, 25 January 2004 12:15 ...Okay. So 7M pop with 15/8/25 factories gives 33.2K And so i got 33K. Is it difficult to build all fac's in testbed? ... Yes. When colonizing an 50% germ world with 4 years growth (55k pop) that planet starts exporting pop in 11th turn, but 380 fac's are built in 17 turns. About 1/3 of testbed planets gets additional pop after turn 33, so they just CAN'T build all fac's. In my testbeds I pay attention to get planet distribution as close to expected distribution of the game I'm preparing for. If there's more or less planets I change the seed. For a packed uni there are two thresholds: 6-7 planets within single W-9 jump, 25-30 within two W-9 jumps, and mineral-poor HW. I want reliable results, not records. BR, Iztok

WHAAAT?!
It is easy as to design factories to grow faster than 10% on thir own power alone. Minerals are hardly an issue with HE, In my exp I had loads and loads of minerals that I canna spend and lots of free res to reseach/build ships without hurtin' econ a bit. Mayhaps yea need to lower the no of fac a bit, so yea can afford force multiplier LPT and cheaper fac instead of more efficient ones??

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alexdstewart wrote on Mon, 26 January 2004 03:11

Hmm... All this reminds me of why I dislike/hate cruiser hull. (I often do not take RS). I canna put enough organic armour on it to make it cost effective against organic destroyer with basookas/sapper (r3phaser/sapper even). Cruiser can't match the cost effectiveness and agility of simple and humble destroyer. That ain't good if you ask me... (untill missiles come along AND that's when you don't field chaff with yea fleet).

C'mon, what race (besides CA) will research expensive bio 7 before con 9? In that time frame players are buying bio just for terra and minelayers. The only advantage DDs have over CCs is weight. They'll move last, but they will also shot the last. Anyway, if I'd have to counter your DDs I'd build FFs with Yaks or even two BJs. CCs would come into play with weap tech 10-12, En 10 and prop 8-9. IMO building them earlier isn't cost-effective.
BR, Iztok

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mlaub wrote on Sun, 25 January 2004 23:19

My best 4% HE *ever*, hit 12k@Y50. Go ahead, laugh all you want, but that same race consistently hits Weap 16, Con 13, and Prop 12, and if IIRC Energy 14 at the same year. That was not in a testbed, folks, that was in several games. ... I've hit Nubs at Y67.

I fully agree ... but these folks cannot build much ships early and that is 4% HE-s biggest downside. Tune their tech down by slow tech and there HE gets mark4/jihad stuff at 2450, in quite minor numbers.

What is most funny... these things do not actually matter if you win the game or no. See two examples:

My best IT ever (actually the only my own IT i ever played, other two i played as replacement) hit 46K@Y50 and 102k@Y60 in real game. It had nub tech at Y68 but that because it was slow tech game. I did not win that game. Such IT was bad overshot in econ where i am strong enough. My tactics, strategies and diplo lacked.

Now I just won a game with AR that had 6K@2450, 10K@2460, 18K@2470 and only at 2490 it had 60K and reached nubs. Others were fighting each other with Arma BB-s i never built one ... so i was first to reach nubs. At 2520 all suddenly agreed i won the game. Laugh all you want.

So you are correct, 2450 resources do matter nothing.

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iztok wrote on Mon, 26 January 2004 16:48

Just checked that tactics. Yes, with 50% germ all planets have all possible fac's built. But you've lost 24 years of 10% growth on your HW and up to 11 years from your first colonies. No way I'd do that.

I colonized all by 2425 because i did not want to mess around with that testbed half a day.

With 15/8/25 factories and all germ available the colony maxes factories with 14 turns. If i want to achieve all factories built by 2450 the latest date worth to colonize something is 2435. That involves carrying germ+pop and such MM i can do in real game but thanks but NO thanks in testbed.

Overall it makes no difference if the pop first flies and then grows or first grows and then flies and then grows again... It is the very same pop. My main point was that 5% HE is strong enough.

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Hi!

Kotk wrote on Mon, 26 January 2004 19:04

With 15/8/25 factories and all germ available the colony maxes factories with 14 turns.

I did a testbed with your colonizing tactics. Excellent for testbeds, saves a lot of time in first 30 turns. I've found that 15/8/25 is an overkill. Even with 15/9/25 there wasn't enough pop on new colonies to run all fac's that could be built.

Quote:

My main point was that 5% HE is strong enough.

Point proven (nobody objected here ), with a correction: 5% HE is strong enough economically. They still lack high mobility of the gates. The bigger the universe, the worse effect of that.

BTW, I almost forgot: I can not find my old HE testbed setup. I've overwritten it when testbedding for "Twelve gates".
BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Wed, 28 January 2004 02:54]

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iztok wrote on Wed, 28 January 2004 09:34

I did a testbed with your colonizing tactics. Excellent for testbeds, saves a lot of time in first 30 turns. I've found that 15/8/25 is an overkill. Even with 15/9/25 there wasn't enough pop on new colonies to run all fac's that could be built.

For actual game i would suggest even more overkill.
5% HE with 15/7/21 g box checked factories. Will give about 28K (30K best) at 2450 in packed testbed but game-wise will be as sharp as 4%. Factories catch the pop growth with 10 turns when germ is present! It has pop unlike 4%. That means it is lot less vulnerable years 30-40. After that it is matter of skill and luck anyway who wins.

Quote:

Point proven (nobody objected here ), with a correction: 5% HE is strong enough economically. They still lack high mobility of the gates. The bigger the universe, the worse effect of that.

Correct. Thats why i like other PRTs. I do not like to rely strategically on allies. HE is still very strong and so often experts use it. 5% 3 immune or 6% 2 immune. Last time i met Jason Cawley playing he had 2 immune HE. Tiny packed. We lost it to Varn who had almost OWW IS and unbelievable luck in hab draw.

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Hi!

Kotk wrote on Wed, 28 January 2004 13:20

... HE is still very strong and so often experts use it. 5% 3 immune or 6% 2 immune. Last time i met Jason Cawley playing he had 2 immune HE. Tiny packed. We lost it to Varn who had almost OWW IS and unbelievable luck in hab draw.

I'm still waiting for a game in small uni to test my HE skill. The "Twelve gates" was perfect (higher conc of stars than packed uni, 30 stars per player AND free gates), but I applied too late.
BR, Iztok

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multilis wrote on Fri, 30 January 2004 11:00

You want to be ecconomically stronger to compensate for the lack of mobillity, the opposite of an SS who can get by with less. ... And since you can't always win a 'biggest fleet' type contest, you may want to think about Mao style war (which cloaked metamorphs can help).

These two sentences do not fit together! If our HE is economically stronger it should *always* try to win the biggest fleet contest on military conflict. If it is not stronger, well ... sorry.

Only SS and SD can seriously damage opponent without having bigger fleet.
Other PRTs can seriously damage opponent without having bigger fleet when that opponent is HE.

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Sotek wrote on Sat, 31 January 2004 03:18

There are (rare. Very rare) times when you want to use cheaper components.

Generally true but using cheaper component than max available is quite usual with shields.
Freighter ... use energy 6 shield. Maybe energy 7 if you are IS or SS, maybe that MT shield if you have, but the rest are waste.
B-52 ... use energy 14 shields, the rest are waste.
With frigates, DD-s, rogues and galleons almost anything you put on them should be overconsidered if cheaper part does not do the trick.
SFX... if you got fuel mizer then better go warp 10 with it instead of using IS-10. IS-10 makes your SFX about 4 times more expensive.
With nubians ... people use jets no thrusters, often cheaper comps than nexi. Have seen cheaper engines used on nubs instead of IS-10 but thats not too common. May be more effective to use EHF instead of CPS on some nub designs ... for example light missile nubian has lots of slots but i am not too sure about it.

Quote:

I can't see ever using 35% cloaks, however.

Correct about Morph. Morph has enough slots to get it cloaked with 55% cloaks. 35% cloaks are bad idea.
However 35% cloaks arent completely useless.
When you fight SD late game, you want to have cloaked sweepers/skirmishers to have any hope in skirmish war. If you are no SS you will use nubian for that. It is hard to build more cost efficient design than 1 slot for shields, 1 slot for jets, 1 slot for beams, 1 slot for scanners and 8 slots for 35% cloaks.
Another usage for 35% cloaks is to cloak your orbitals early with them. Can sometimes ambush careless opponent who thinks you have no orbital or gate there. But ... yes ... i cannot think of any other use for 35% cloak.

[Updated on: Sat, 31 January 2004 07:18]

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