Home » Primary Racial Traits » WM » HP WM
HP WM |
Sun, 21 January 2007 16:07 ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Neo the White | ![](images/po_master.gif) | Master Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 96
Registered: December 2006 | |
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I've read from several places
that Hyper-Producing WM is no good.
I can't really see how as it can get a lot of minerals fast not to mention resources. with of course a high PGR.
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Re: HP WM |
Mon, 22 January 2007 06:49 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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tgellan | ![](images/cpo.gif) | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 75
Registered: May 2006 Location: Luxembourg | |
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Well, one is countering the other...
For WM the endgame tends to hold more disadvantages then advantages. First there's the fact that they can't produce any minelayers, and second that their planetary defenses are only the very basic ones. Then, their PRT gimmichs get outdated in the endgame when construction and weapon reach max levels. This forces the WM to view planets as more disposable that with other race traits. It also forces the WM to seak a descision before this stage of the game, thus WMs are generally the first to rush into battles, trying to make most out of their starting ships and weapon tec superiority, their invasion bonuses and later on their PRT gimmicks.
A HP trait on the other side, is slow to start as you've got to set up your economy, there are nearly no spare ressources you could put into an early war. Then the HP's economy will eat up any GE he can put his hand on, so no way to waste it on early fleets. Once the HP has reach the mid game, and is well established on a certain number of planets, those production centers are very valuable. They were created during several decades and huge amounts of GE. The HP cannot afford to lose them lightly and therefor need to be defended with all means. This means minefields, bases, fleets and efficient defenses...
Hope this is understandable...
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Re: HP WM |
Mon, 22 January 2007 11:33 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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tgellan | ![](images/cpo.gif) | Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 75
Registered: May 2006 Location: Luxembourg | |
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Neo the White wrote on Mon, 22 January 2007 16:03 | Early war.
at the year 2447
HW has 3117 resources
12k Ir, Bo
and 5k GE
but yeah building up colonies will take time.
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Erm, year 2447 and early??? By early wars, I mean after 2410! and before 2420, at the very latest at 2430... (That's for AccBBS, add 6-10 years for non AccBBs)
In our current game (The Galactic Traders, 12 players, Pbem), we have three major wars, and all of them started well before 2430. I don't know all the details of those wars, as I'm not involved in all of them, but they happen rather close to my borders and some things happen to spread through the galaxy... One of those wars includes a WM, actually he's the target ![Very Happy](images/smiley_icons/icon_biggrin.gif)
The reason is, he went on rampage since turn 2400!!! He killed everything on sight, well wasn't clever, as everyone just turned against him then
But back to subject, 3117 per planet is fine, granted, but how many planets do you aim to claim by that time?
Consider that -f HG neighbour of yours, that only aims at 1000res / planet, or even less, but has got 50 planets by that time, where you only have 10? What I want to say by this, production per planet doesn't tell you anything, what you need is the grand scheme...
So much about 2447 and early. Even with non ACCBBS, that's still late for a WM...
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DD is a great asset vs AR Death Stars.
also DD if well armed outweigths BB even if they are more numerous.
especially in the case of Capital Missile DDs.
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I guess by DD you mean the dreadnought (?)
I won't say that those are not an impressif force, but once Nubians are out, they are no longer that impressif. I can't check the base hull armor for them, but as I remember it's lower then the base armor of Nubians, and the costs are higher. I grant you that the dreadnoughts have a higher per slot firepower, which is an advantage, but then, if the costs are similar, this is the only late game advantage left...
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also minefield laying ships can be traded.
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Sure, but you won't get them in the numbers, the time or places you need them. The basic idea of mines is to gain time, but even if you manage to trade them, you need time to get them where you need them.
On the other side, you can't possibly rely on getting them at all or in the requested numbers... Just consider the game setup doesn't allow alliances, or if it does, that you're the unlucky guy, who happens to not find an ally (or your ally is a WM too )
Granted, if you are lucky, and ally with a SD or IS and are also able to intersettle at 50% you've got your fields and more... But you won't be lucky each game, also you won't face an AR each time, or he happens to be your ally
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defences of WM are really... I think it odd to not have WM have their laser defences.
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Hehe
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but has anyone had real game experience with HP WM. theoretically and in case HP WM has more resources than other style WM then wouldn't it make bigger fleets?
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Well, sure you're right under the assumption that everyone leaves everyone alone long enough, that everyone gets an equal number of planets and starts building fleets at the same time...
I'd say the only way this could happen, is if you set up a game with force generation of something like 50-1000 years.
And then, I'd probably go for a HP 0WW WM (if I'd take the WM)
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and if the HW is strong then it shouldn't be problematic to deal with HG race who also build ships only in HW at least till 2420?
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Again, all depends of the game parameters... If you consider a tiny universe, answer will be NO, if it's huge, mostly YES. But how will it be at 2440, 2450...
If I'd consider to play a HP WM, I would take worse then usual factory settings in order to pay for 1/1000 res/col. In the beginning I'd play it like a -f, and only later I'd go for ressources... But I doubt I'd find the points for all what's required, high growth in order to get a good share of the universe and early popdrops, hab settings of at least 1/4, as it's played as -f, several cheap tecs like con and weapon. Not to neglect the mines, as you will need lot of GE at some point. But where would you get the points for all this?
But why don't you simply testbed this? Just go for the standard testbed with 25k res by 2450 and keep an eye on spare ressources to defend against that aggressiv or expansionist neighbourg. Then, nothing's worth the experience, just join a game and use a HP WM, depending on the game setup, diplomatics and your luck in game it could work out and then you are the one with ingame experience with such a design
I believe that luck and diplomatics are at least as important as race design. And then a not so optimal design (what ever that is) will lead to more interesting diplomatic and overall game experience ![Smile](images/smiley_icons/icon_smile.gif)
[Updated on: Mon, 22 January 2007 11:35] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HP WM |
Sat, 27 January 2007 10:02 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Neo the White | ![](images/po_master.gif) | Master Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 96
Registered: December 2006 | |
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well the other colonies are still lagging behind, even with ~303k pop they give max 342 resources.
Quote: | 1 if you want to have shield too.
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nope. still two Elect. slots only for Electronics.
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Build one Death Star fully armored and full of jihads or juggers fill electronics with computers and jammers and then check how lot of DD-s it takes to destroy it. Then compare the costs
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and the cost of BB's would be not lesser.
Quote: | But 10 years flat-out build from 5-7 colonies of JOAT and your HP WM is forgotten history by 2450.
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well yeah that's where WM get's out of luck
Quote: | In our current game (The Galactic Traders, 12 players, Pbem), we have three major wars, and all of them started well before 2430. I don't know all the details of those wars, as I'm not involved in all of them, but they happen rather close to my borders and some things happen to spread through the galaxy... One of those wars includes a WM, actually he's the target Very Happy
The reason is, he went on rampage since turn 2400!!! He killed everything on sight, well wasn't clever, as everyone just turned against him then Very Happy
But back to subject, 3117 per planet is fine, granted, but how many planets do you aim to claim by that time?
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sounds like not a typical klingon attitude.
where's the planning???
Also sounds like a good WM style race design but not used to it's best.
Above all I keep 3i HE in mind when making races. so a max planetary resources must not be lower than 3000.
...
[Updated on: Sat, 27 January 2007 10:03] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HP WM |
Sat, 27 January 2007 14:40 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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I disagree with Kotk here re:
Quote: | DD may have 2 computers maximum. 1 if you want to have shield too. So its terribly inaccurate as capital missile platform. Build one Death Star fully armored and full of jihads or juggers fill electronics with computers and jammers and then check how lot of DD-s it takes to destroy
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As soon as jihads are available, DD's with 2 jihad missiles and 2 basic computers brings the accuracy to 49%. They are cheap to build and are 'just' gateable through 100/250 gates with a fuel mizer. Stacks of 15 or more of these DD's are nothing to sneeze at and, supported with chaff they can easily kill early space stations with attack starbase orders. Effectively, 1 of every 2 missiles hit.
By the time any AR has reached death star construction tech, this all becomes a moot point. The AR enemies (if they are any good as players at all) will have battleships. Don't forget, any viable AR will have energy cheap since this is the most important tech - it controls resource growth. AR's will also try for cheap construction and cheap weapons. This eats up a lot of points.
Early AR death stars are not fully armed or shielded - the cost is too high. Taking the basic death star design down as soon as it shows up is when to hit the AR hardest in a long game.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Sat, 27 January 2007 14:41]
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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Re: HP WM |
Tue, 30 January 2007 12:06 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Neo the White | ![](images/po_master.gif) | Master Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 96
Registered: December 2006 | |
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Quote: | In that context i said that DD is terribly inaccurate and/or shieldless.
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and based on what you say that they are less accurate???
it has more slots for computers. so???
also I know that capital missile DDs do much better vs fully operational Death Star than any freakin BBs. so???
[Updated on: Tue, 30 January 2007 12:08] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HP WM |
Wed, 31 January 2007 07:37 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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You need to move fast as a WM. 17% PGR looks too slow to me. Try this QSish race:
Arashi
WM
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS
Grav 0.24 - 1.72
Temp -56 - 136
Rad 10 - 48
Total 1/8
PGR 19%
1/1000 eff
Facts 13/9/16/G
Mines 10/3/16
Weaps & Con cheap, En normal
I'll bet on this to crush any of your races if played correctly.
[Updated on: Wed, 31 January 2007 07:40] Report message to a moderator
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Re: HP WM |
Sat, 03 February 2007 15:48 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Quote: | Arashi
WM
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS
Grav 0.24 - 1.72
Temp -56 - 136
Rad 10 - 48
Total 1/8
PGR 19%
1/1000 eff
Facts 13/9/16/G
Mines 10/3/16
Weaps & Con cheap, En normal
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I wouldn't bet on this race crushing anybody Coyote. As an HP it suffers from two flaws:
1. with 1 in 8 habitability the race will not have enough planets to produce the minerals it needs
2. with OBRM, it isn't going to be able to get the minerals it needs.
In my experience, you do not take less than a 1 in 4 hab range with OBRM to be competitive (unless you've used an immunity - then you can go to a 1 in 6 or possibly to 1 in 7). A compromise HP/HG design is the best for WM and should only be played in a minimum of a small/packed universe to ensure there are enough planets to make the galactic conquest viable.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Sat, 03 February 2007 15:49]
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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Re: HP WM |
Sat, 03 February 2007 21:52 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) |
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Ptolemy wrote on Sat, 03 February 2007 12:48 |
Quote: | Arashi
WM
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS
Grav 0.24 - 1.72
Temp -56 - 136
Rad 10 - 48
Total 1/8
PGR 19%
1/1000 eff
Facts 13/9/16/G
Mines 10/3/16
Weaps & Con cheap, En normal
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I wouldn't bet on this race crushing anybody Coyote. As an HP it suffers from two flaws:
1. with 1 in 8 habitability the race will not have enough planets to produce the minerals it needs
2. with OBRM, it isn't going to be able to get the minerals it needs.
In my experience, you do not take less than a 1 in 4 hab range with OBRM to be competitive (unless you've used an immunity - then you can go to a 1 in 6 or possibly to 1 in 7). A compromise HP/HG design is the best for WM and should only be played in a minimum of a small/packed universe to ensure there are enough planets to make the galactic conquest viable.
Ptolemy
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On the basic QuickStart design style:
Huh? That's not a HP race. It's a QS... very similar to a race I ended up taking 2nd with in a 16 player medium (that was SD with 1/9 hab). It'll have no problems if played aggressively.
(If you don't want to play aggressively, why are you playing WM?)
THe SD variant I played did get out-ramped by a HP (I think it was JoaT) in the end, but the reason for that was the race was physically too far away from me to attack while it was vulnerable, and it had an unmolested start by allying with all its neighbors. I did manage to wipe out two races completely (an SD and a CA) and put the hurt on a few more. The basic race design is sound.
On OBRM:
There's no reason to not take OBRM in a situation where remote mining simply makes no sense. If you're going to be fighting early, remote minimg won't help you much. Without minefields your remote miners will be even more vulnerable than your planets. It takes a long time for remote miners to pay for themselves, and it seems to me to be a lot more cost-effective to build warships and bombers and gain minerals through planet conquest instead. And besides, you need
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