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AR and Smart Bombing Wed, 17 January 2007 17:02 Go to next message
Iconian is currently offline Iconian

 
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In this thread a discussion started about how AR colonizers need to have a planetís population killed off before they can colonize it. First,

Dogthinkers wrote



mazda wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 00:11



gible wrote on Sat, 13 January 2007 03:36

AR viral bombing happens between fleet battles and meeting the MT.
If you are also using 'regular' bombs on the same planet then the viral bombing does not occur
The presense and activity of other players bombers does not have this affect.




So if the bombers don't clear it then it won't get colonised ?
That's probably worth knowing, for an AR.





The really significant part here, is that AR races can't use combinations of conventional bombers and coloniser-bombers to clear worlds quickly. If they want the colonisers to bomb, the conventional bombers actually have to leave orbit



Then,

Kotk wrote

Why so lot about that viral bombing?
AR colonizer bombers are actually not so cost-effective, especially in ironium and germanium terms. Somehow it feels better to use traditional bombers. The colonizers have some qualities but lets see...
Preserve installations.
Have better fuel.
Have lighter weight.
48 colonizers can have LF of cargo space.
Pop is not dying when travelling in quantities of 22kT.

But why should AR care about installations; its not that expensive to have SFX and LF with; the minibombers also dont die too lot when overgating and for pop not dying ... who wants to MM split/merge them colonizers each turn to have that tiny effect?




I responded that Kotk is right, except possibly in the case of a low growth AR, which would be harder hit by 3% losses in an LF. Travel time would also factor in as well.

There's already been a lot of discussion about how smart bombs are generally useless, and now we're also hearing that viral bombing is next to useless as well? This got me wondering that's entirely true. Maybe AR bombers and smart bombs could be useful for something. How about in an alliance? The smarts
...




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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Wed, 17 January 2007 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Coyote is currently offline Coyote

 
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-snip-

[Updated on: Wed, 17 January 2007 18:41]

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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Wed, 17 January 2007 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Interesting analysis.

IMO, AR Bombers are usefull to the AR race in early to mid game only. As your numbers suggest, they just aren't efficient enough in late game.

I see two primary uses:

1) An alternative to smart bombs for capturing worlds (mostly) intact. Decent smart bombs require research to obtain... Factoried races will pay well for this service.

2) Finishing off worlds... *AR can't pop drop*. So unless I bring enough bombers to get 100% kills (at least once the defences have been pounded for a couple of years) then I'm going to be waiting a long time to colonise... I find a year or so of bombing with conventional bombs then finishing off with coloniser bombers is a straightforward way to clear a world without having to spend overmuch on bombers.

I figure once Cherry bombs show up I probably wouldn't make much use of coloniser bombers... But until they do they are pretty usefull. Add to this that they will eventually get used anyway for colonisation (reds, recolonising worlds you had to retreat from etc.) then 50 or so colonisers in mid game doesn't look like a bad investment (unlike say m70 or m80 bombers that you'll likely scrap to regain the slot once you get around to building cherries.)

The PIA though, is discovering that the colonisers can't bomb in same year as regular bombers... If you have an ally you can plan for this, otherwise it's a bit of a problem. Enough so that I almost certainly wouldn't bother with them in a game where I couldn't also sell their services to factoried races. If they *could* bomb in the same year (as they should, I consider this a bug) then it would seem a no-brainer to me to include coloniser bombers in any bombing fleet, at least until you reach the point where your bombing fleets are substantial enough to score complete kills in 1-2 years. But sadly, they can't.


[Updated on: Wed, 17 January 2007 19:02]

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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Thu, 18 January 2007 04:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Iconian wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 23:02

Maybe AR bombers and smart bombs could be useful for something. How about in an alliance? The smarts would kill a large portion of the population, and then the AR colonizers could finish off the remaining colonists.

Using 20000 colonizers Shocked ? You must be joking WTH . IMO the only feasible approach to preserve some installations is by destroying ~50% of them, and finishing planet off with two-three packets. All other approaches are either too expensive or kill too many installations on the planet. Late game defenses are a real PITA if one wants to preserve factories. Confused

Quote:

Most players donít build defenses for quite a while...

... and those are the first to be wiped out by packet attacks. When the war starts, are defenses the second thing one builds on endangered planets, the first one obviously being an armed orbital. So attacking with ships/bombers isn't so "free" as is at the first strike.

Quote:

Before smarts:Before smarts or defenses, you could go in with 475 AR bombers

Please tell me where the heck will an mineral-limited AR get enough minerals for 475 colonizers in this phase of the game? WTH

Quote:

Probably the best candidate would be an HP WM with a low growth rate and expensive factories and mines with TT ...

You can met such a strange beast only in beginners game. HPs aim at the late game. WM with its weak defenses is one of the worst races for the late game.

Quote:

Defender:And what about the enemy? ...
The best target would probably be a 3i low growth HE with tons of factories and mines and OBRM that hasnít built defenses yet, with a low level of and expensive energy tech...

Yeah, true, if it would exist. The real strenght of those 3-immune low growth HEs is they can afford LOTS of god things, many cheap techs being one. Since they know they're a target, they likely have the tech that provides more protection (energy) at least normal, if not cheap.

Quote:

It would be interesting to see the AR-WM-IT combination in a huge unive
...



[Updated on: Thu, 18 January 2007 04:23]

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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Thu, 18 January 2007 05:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Notice that AR has to preserve installations only when he wants to make ally happy with that colony. AR can use no installations itself because is living in starbase. Nod

LBU/Cherry mix supported with casual packets is usually perfect for AR. I have never built smart bombs as AR and even Hush-A-Booms i have only used as better and lighter Cherries (so as in B52 with HAB/LBU mix). Very Happy

Viral bombing i have used only for bombing (or finishing off) tiny colonies. Like say yellows of opponent. Breakpoint is at pop < 50000. Such colony takes about 25 colony ships or 30 M-80 minibombers to empty with one year bombing.

The positive side of viral bombing is that they are utter opposite of smarts. To give an example if you got only 13 colony ships then you can kill the 50000 pop planet with 2 turn bombing. 15 M-80 minibombers work 4 years like 50000->25000->12000->3000->0. Smarts of course never finish something off. Wink


[Updated on: Thu, 18 January 2007 05:55]

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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Fri, 19 January 2007 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
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Viral bombing certainly does have it's merits in the early to mid game. First of all, viral bombing colonizers bomb if they've been transferred to another race. In the early game, these are the ONLY available smart bombs - nobody is likely to have enough bio tech yet for any of the actual smart bombs. Use 25-50 colonizers and the HP race gets all the factories. Therefore, viral bombing colonizers are good trade items for an AR.

Even the AR can make use of using 25-50 of the colonziers - he's going to need them to colonize somewhere eventually anyway.

Ptolemy






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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Fri, 19 January 2007 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Iconian is currently offline Iconian

 
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Quote:

The PIA though, is discovering that the colonisers can't bomb in same year as regular bombers... If you have an ally you can plan for this, otherwise it's a bit of a problem. Enough so that I almost certainly wouldn't bother with them in a game where I couldn't also sell their services to factoried races. If they *could* bomb in the same year (as they should, I consider this a bug) then it would seem a no-brainer to me to include coloniser bombers in any bombing fleet, at least until you reach the point where your bombing fleets are substantial enough to score complete kills in 1-2 years. But sadly, they can't.


Discussion still seems to be going on in this subject in the new thread . . . I haven't tested it myself. If it's just an AR bombing, I'd say use only LBU's and standards, since you don't care about the installations. If an ally of the AR wants to get the installations, then to be safe the lower player # brings smarts and the higher one bring virals for bombing.

Quote:

Using 20000 colonizers ? You must be joking . IMO the only feasible approach to preserve some installations is by destroying ~50% of them, and finishing planet off with two-three packets. All other approaches are either too expensive or kill too many installations on the planet. Late game defenses are a real PITA if one wants to preserve factories.


Am I joking? Yes, and no. I'm not joking because you could do it with 22,000 colonizers. I am joking because it'd be ludicrously expensive, not to mention what would happen if those colonizers took a mine hit or someone tried to kamikaze them. But hey, if you're an AR and some asks you to build them 22,000 colonizers (maybe 1,000 at a time), and they reimburse you upfront for the minerals, it might possibly be worth it. Not that anyone would actually do that though . . .

Quote:

Please tell me where the heck will an mineral-limited AR get enough minerals for 475 colonizers in this phase of the game?


Again, the ally. Remember that the colonizers are basically for the
...




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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Fri, 19 January 2007 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
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Quote:

Smarts won't ever finish anything off, but they can be a cheap way to keep something in check. 9 mini bombers with Smart Bombs, 6 with Neutrons, 4 with Enriched Neutrons, 3 with Peerless, or 2 with Annihilators will keep any defenseless population from growing and start eating away at it, even if it's a 20% HE or JOAT with OBRM. Once again though, this requires them to not use any defenses. As soon as they start building them the kills begin to drop.


However, you need the bio tech to build them. The AR colonizer is available from turn 0 - 2430 you can be bombing 100k planets that have no defenses.

Ptolemy





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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Mon, 22 January 2007 00:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Iconian is currently offline Iconian

 
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Quote:

However, you need the bio tech to build them. The AR colonizer is available from turn 0 - 2430 you can be bombing 100k planets that have no defenses.

Ptolemy


Viral bombing is definitely good for early bombing. Smart bombing can also be good, if you have TT.

Now, something a bit different:

If an HP that didn't have access to viral bombing was trying to capture a planet with facilities intact, couldn't they just use a bunch of smarts and Lady Finger Bombs, even if they do have Cherries? The smarts would get the % kill, and LFB's would have miniaturized costs over Cherries and be lighter for gating/fuel, they'd get the min kill while taking out fewer installations.



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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Mon, 22 January 2007 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Iconian wrote on Mon, 22 January 2007 07:45

Now, something a bit different:

If an HP that didn't have access to viral bombing was trying to capture a planet with facilities intact, couldn't they just use a bunch of smarts and Lady Finger Bombs, even if they do have Cherries? The smarts would get the % kill, and LFB's would have miniaturized costs over Cherries and be lighter for gating/fuel, they'd get the min kill while taking out fewer installations.


Iztok already told somewhere that the most thinkable idea there is to have fleet that destroys not all the facilities + packets.

Let me describe it in more detail then? First bombing.
It does not matter if LBU or Cherry are used the idea is that not all the defenses are left after bombing.
Lets say youre genius and estimate the amount of facilities after bombing very accurately so that 50 Planetary shields 50% facilities and 600 000 pop are left and bombers go to next place.
To finish the job are 2 packets of 3500kT from 200ly distance at warp 12 that hit before new defenses are built next turn (so were tossed same turn you entered the orbit with bombers).

First Packet Hits Arrow 27 Planetary shields, 50% facilities and 320 000 pop left
Second Packet Hits Arrow 0 Planetary shields, 50% facilities and 19 000 pop left
Now it is time to drop pop or bomb virally depending on PRT. Wink

As for LFB ... LFB minimum kill kicks in only with below 50 000 pop planets (otherwise 0.6% is bigger than 300). Below 50 000 pop operates less than 20 defenses so it is usually simpler to pop-drop with LF of pop anyway. Nod The only exception is AR who cant pop-drop so i have practiced to bomb them little planets virally with AR.

If to compare versus over 50 000 pop planets then LFBs do not save noteworthy amount of installations compared to Cherries anyway; you need them more so need more fuel to drag them along and also fleet cost is more than twice bigger. Actually LFBs are probably below the breakpoint where packet is better investment. Laughing



...



[Updated on: Mon, 22 January 2007 11:05]

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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Tue, 23 January 2007 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Iconian is currently offline Iconian

 
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Quote:

If to compare versus over 50 000 pop planets then LFBs do not save noteworthy amount of installations compared to Cherries anyway; you need them more so need more fuel to drag them along and also fleet cost is more than twice bigger. Actually LFBs are probably below the breakpoint where packet is better investment.


Hmm. You're probably right . . . though you'll get a lot more repeated use out of LFB's than packets for sure, and they kill 1/5 as many installations as Cherries. I think the smart/LFB combination could work, but it wouldn't be particularly feasible. It certainly seems that against better rated defenses, smarts just don't work too well.



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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Thu, 25 January 2007 05:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Iconian wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 23:02

An AR and WM on a team could plan ahead to use this strategy to take out their enemies, the WM going for weapons and bio and the AR going for high con to miniaturize the colonizer cost.

As a side note: the colonizer hull and OCM both have zero tech requirements which means lowest tech field is used for minituarisation, not con.

Another side note now I think of it: I've been in a game as AR and bumped into a HG WM which decided not to kill me. Smile (Thanks Ken!) Smile We allied and he did most of the fighting with his superior battle hulls (though not much wars going on). I in the mean time build a size-able fleet of superbugs to feed minerals to the WM. Then I ramped to nubs and was the first to have them in the game ... After that the game was basicly over, game ended shortly after our production of an unlimited amount of beamer nubs and missile DNs started. I ended up in first place (DS bred 120.000 cols per year), the WM in second (as he predicted the moment we allied!) ...
And we never used the viral bombs ...

mch


[Updated on: Thu, 25 January 2007 05:59]

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Re: AR and Smart Bombing Fri, 26 January 2007 22:41 Go to previous message
Iconian is currently offline Iconian

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

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AHA!!!

This explains it.

Quote:

As a side note: the colonizer hull and OCM both have zero tech requirements which means lowest tech field is used for minituarisation, not con.


I had read about that a while ago, but apparently forgot it. Then I testbedding stuff a few days ago and did a bunch of con research hoping to miniaturize the cost of my colonizers, but they wouldn't get cheaper. The STARS! spreadsheet I have said I needed to research other fields, but I didn't get it--but now it's all come back. Starbases were the other major thing I remember as requiring all fields researched in order to miniaturize.

Thank you very much. Smile


[Updated on: Fri, 26 January 2007 22:41]




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