Home » Primary Racial Traits » PP » Bi-Immune PP
| Bi-Immune PP |
Thu, 26 October 2006 23:47  |
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I'd like to know what the feed back on this race is:
PP
IFE, TT, ARM, NRSE, LS
Grav Immune
Temp 120 to 200
Rad Immune
PGR 15
1000/10/10/10
no check
10/4/10
All expensive tech.
no check
I'd like some advice on both diplomatic capabilities of this race as well as an estimate of how well it'll play against other races.
For what I can tell, it'll take a LOT of tech trading to overcome it's obvious tech problems. The worlds aren't in any short supploy and new ones can be "Created" which is why I picked PP. The only ore for terraforming is boron and that might be something worth trading for. Or mining with ARM.
I think that by consolidating my ore needs to the least used type that I'll be able to terraform more efficiently, since I can speed terraform worlds from the start. Later on as I start mining the reds I can change some of them into greens and improve my existing greens. This was my thought at least. Comments? Suggestions?
With full bio I get 1/2 of the worlds yellow or green. And with PP terraforming I get even more that are close to being yellow.
[Updated on: Thu, 26 October 2006 23:49]
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Fri, 27 October 2006 00:33  |
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With only 1 field to terraform, you won't really make much (any) use of packet forming for a while.
I'd switch to rad narrow instead of temp narrow, as you don't get many planets on the edge of temp and grav. This would make the difference between a 1in6 start and a 1in5, at no points cost. Although you are much more likely to have hab sharing issues. Finding 12 points to take rad left shifted instead would solve that problem. You shouldn't have a germ shortage, with all those remotes and a low factory count, so packet forming with germ isn't quite as crazy as it sounds... But still, maybe temp is better even so.
Economy is pretty poor, with poor facs, mines and low growth rate. Compound this with no cheap techs and you have a problem.
It'll be a LONG time before you have TT tech high enough to get many planets - don't forget you are unlikely to be able to trade for bio. That said, 11 clicks terra gets you to 1in3 (rad) or 1in4 (temp) which is achievable without trading.
Diplomacy is very nice, with ARM and scanners and possibly great hab sharing. Although no-cheap techs is going to make tech trading a massive challenge, you may be able to offset this somewhat with these LRT advantages.
After spending a bit of time playing in the race wizard with this race... I can't find a way to make it work. Giving up the factories may be the key (but it's still hard to get a good PGR, and exp tech -f doesn't sound fun) or perhaps going to a HP style econ (which makes a lot of sense with the pre-forming model.)
Overall, I would say if you want to packet form with PP, exploit it further and plan to packet form two variables instead of just one.
EDIT: sticking to the spirit of the race (2i, diplomacy) maybe you might like this:
NRSE, TT, ARM, LSP (gave up IFE...)
Grav, Rad immune
Temp 120 to 200
PGR 15
1/2500 15/8/16 3g facs
10/4/12 mines (10/3/10 mines is also an option)
all exp
Could push fac cost to 9 and get start@3... But I'd probably try to rely on fast talking and the diplomatic potent
...
[Updated on: Fri, 27 October 2006 00:45] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Fri, 27 October 2006 04:02 |
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Thanks! I'll try that out, the HP does make sense with a -T race. I was a bit worried about that, but with an HP econ and packet preforming (which I'd do anyway) fits. That should go smoothly with the rest. I use reserved iron for miners and germ for factories and boron for terraforming. I wonder if I could trade for boron? heh, miners for boron. That'd be funny... Course It also means I have less to worry about when remote mining, only looking for high boron worlds.
If I go with 14% I can get bio down to normal and either 10/4/13 mines or 10/3/11 mines... I'm going to have to do tests on this race. I hope it comes out as a viable race (I'm only shooting for ~15k by 50, since that's what I usually manage anyway, though with allies I can get further. No IFE's going to bite big time, I'll see how it plays out, thanks!
Edit: One other question what remote miner would you use? Midget with QJ5 and 1 5kt miner? or hold out for higher tech miners? Mine early or later with higher tech?
[Updated on: Fri, 27 October 2006 05:00]
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Fri, 27 October 2006 08:53 |
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Whenever I drop below 15% in the race wizard, I can't help but start thinking I'd be far better off with a 6%(12%) 3i HE...
In my first game I played a 14% JOAT, and it was very nice but the 6% HE next door was able to grow pop faster... That said I know this is 2i so most worlds will be very good... But still.
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Fri, 27 October 2006 20:39 |
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| iztok wrote on Fri, 27 October 2006 03:34 |
Hi!
| Captain Maim wrote on Fri, 27 October 2006 10:02 |
One other question what remote miner would you use? Midget with QJ5 and 1 5kt miner? or hold out for higher tech miners?
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The first miner I'd consider using is maxi at con-7 and elec-4. Everything earlier is crap - too high costs for given investment. The ONLY one bonus midget robot has over normal robot is low weight: can be gated through 100/250 gates and build at docks.
BR, Iztok
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Playing with an IT race that has normal mining, that was my impression also. I wasn't sure yet if the same holds true for ARM... The ultra miner however is worth it, but that's going to be a ridiculously long way off with all expensive tech. At least without the help from allies it is. The Maxi miner's the first miner that can even BEGIN to start paying for itself. Much like bombs, I wouldn't use anything under weapons 11.
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Fri, 27 October 2006 22:42 |
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The original midgit miner design is actually not bad. A little expensive at the start, but if you need more mines early (this race likely would) it's not *that* bad, especially when you bear in mind the main cost is in Iron, and this race wants germ and boranium.
It is also a nice design as it scales well with tech - it is enough better than the ARMless miners than it remains efficient quite far up the tech tree, thanks to miniturisation. It's only really super miners onwards that it becomes worthwhile to bring in a new design, and even supers aren't enough better to justify scrapping this 2400 design.
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Fri, 27 October 2006 23:23 |
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So what your saying is, build Potato Bugs because they're good all the way upto super miners? I haven't run the numbers on them but I know they're substantially cheaper and therefore can be more easily mass produced.
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Sat, 28 October 2006 15:42 |
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| Captain Maim wrote on Sat, 28 October 2006 13:23 |
So what your saying is, build Potato Bugs because they're good all the way upto super miners? I haven't run the numbers on them but I know they're substantially cheaper and therefore can be more easily mass produced.
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Yeah, *if* you need the remotes. Some of the mining robots in between are marginally more efficient, but not enough to warrant a design slot or giving up the lightweight design imho.
Sometimes it's better to wait for super/ultra, of course. But don't forget to take into account all the years of mining you could've done while researching - sometimes it's better to pay more to get your mining early than to pay less but not start till mid game.... All depends on race/game of course.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 October 2006 15:43] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Sat, 28 October 2006 18:51 |
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My first test with my original design yielded 16k by 50.. However I feel that I was reaching it's upper limits, so I'm running a benchmark on the HP design with some minor modifications, I hope 14% doesn't bite too bad, that and IFE.
What's the best engine and technique to use without IFE for rapid expansion?
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Sun, 29 October 2006 01:31 |
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That's a lot of acronyms, but yeah I think IFE's something I can't go without. My last test yielded an aweful 8k by 50. Where as the HG model (where the worlds could last more self sufficiently) pulled twice that. I also suspect that my very late expansion was a result of no IFE. I had to wait for the prop 9 engine before I could decently expand. I used all the engines upto it briefly and then scrapped the designs as I got new engines. But those non ram scoops are a killer on gas mileage. I also gained a greater respect for the Prop 9 engine as it's got some SERIOUS range on it. At least with Privateers it does.
I'm not usually an HP player so I'd like to know how common <10k by 50 is. Also I wasn't able to mine enough germ to go around, but more importantly I was sprawling into two neighbor's cores. One neighbor had 6 or 7 of my worlds in his space. Which of course he guarded and protected from any shipments. And with such low pop resources it wasn't easy to work those worlds up. The distances between worlds might have worked out better if I were an IT instead.
[Updated on: Sun, 29 October 2006 01:36]
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Sun, 29 October 2006 02:30 |
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To "graduate" from beginner its customary to be able to get 25k+ by 2450 in a small normal with AccBBS start, so <10k isn't that common, no. Having said that I've never actually done it myself, the one time I tried it in a solo game, I got bored and gave up before 2450. I generally only testbed my start to tweak breakpoints for specific tech gains vs pop vs minerals etc.
If you're going to play -ife you'll need to get the hang of using fuel booster ships, either scout+fuel tank or DD+2fuel tanks. I've heard the DD is more cost effective, but I haven't tried myself, only time I ever used fuel boosters was play HE and the mini-coloniser with fueltank or cargo pod rules for a long time. Alternatively, or in addition, to fuel boosters - loading your freighters with less that a full load extends your range significantly. Be careful transporting pop with IS this way as your load increases(which is generally the plan).
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Sun, 29 October 2006 03:04 |
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Fuel Boosters with IFE is what I usually do, I tend to "shed" my booster ships to extend my range by reducing the mass. With IFE I can shed the boosters two scouts at a time, and let them get home after collecting enough fuel at warp 4. I've managed to get a substantial distance from doing that. Since the mass decreases as the trip continues I can get to places where I was told I'd run out of gas. Without IFE it gets harder to do that since I can't recycle my booster rockets. But I don't botter if the trip is at or under 222ly (I've clocked that as the max round trip distance for a PVT FM, 3 fuel pods. 222ly there at warp 9 when full and 222ly back empty is the max range of that ship.)
I've considered using a DD with two fuel pods, but I've never done the math on it. When I play JOAT I use that with a few weapons as a scout. I do know that a colony ship with a fuel pod isn't useful. Because 2 of them has as much fuel as 3 scouts and costs the same amount in resources but more in germ and is heavier I believe so the range is reduced ultimately. Plus you can't shed them easily since they have cargo space, which slows them down even more.
No my problem was the mines just couldn't pull enough ore to feed my germ hungry worlds. I was exceeding my capacity to sustain them. That was my problem. Plus, and I'm sure this a common HP thing, I felt my pop was just flat lazy, though taking 100,000 away hit my resource output a lot harder than I'd anticipated, and a lot more than it does an HG race.
I'll have to do more tests, see if I can't improve things.
I do know that once I get P9 I'm sitting pretty with a practical and efficient engine, heck even the ram scoop engine at P9 is dandy, though I'd use that if I had it.
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Sun, 29 October 2006 11:18 |
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Well, don't forget PP is a toy race not an econ race, but <10k is a bad place to be in at 2450, especially with -T.
I think the bottom line here is that 2i is a big stretch in points and PP not only starts out as the most expensive PRT but can't use NAS as a points mine either.
Further, I think PP gets less out of 2i than any other race except CA, because PP has the ability to packet form. I think 1i would make a lot more sense for a race that plans to packet form a lot. The (huge) saving can be used to fix the economy somewhat.
For example:
PP
IFE, NRSE, ARM, LSP, RS (gave up TT and LSP)
Grav immune
Temp 40^ to 120^ (60 to 80)
Rad 16 to 86
16% PGR
1/2500 pop
15/8/16 3g factories
14/3/18 mines
all expensive, start@3 checked
6 to min concs
So by swapping the rad immunity for a 70 wide field, for my HP variantion, I've been able to:
1) Buy IFE again (but I did also give up TT)
2) Shift temp inwards, so we are not in the sparse edge area, and also so we can terra worlds in from both directions.
3) Increased max PGR 1 point
4) Improved mines massively
6) Gave up LSP, so start shouldn't be quite so sluggish
7) Bought start@3 to allow more early resources to push into factory building.
Should be heaps faster than the 2i version. Still far from a good race design, it needs a lot of tuning still, of course. HP isn't to everyone's tastes either, but my point is how much I was able to buy by giving up the second immunity for a (very) wide field.
I'd really love to give up ARM as well, and buy both OBRM and 5 more factories (increasing potential econ by over 39%), but that was one of the diplomatic goodies you wanted, so I left it in.
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Thu, 02 November 2006 23:59 |
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With an HP PP I'd be more likely to take grav immune for 2 reasons:
1) since PP's are extremely mineral hungry races I prefer to keep up the iron supply for construction.
2) If I'm going to packet terraform, I don't mind throwing some germ. Some of the packet that hits remains on the surface so, when the colonists arrive they have starting germ for factory production.
I've worked hard to get a HP PP that was viable since I like HP races. I like all those resources for building my expensive battle fleets. One thing I hate doing is putting a nice expensive battleship in a queue and having to wait 2 turns for it to be built. This is the drawback of -f races.
OBRM is very bad idea with PP's unless it is a -f race with wide hab. A 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 race is going to want the minerals from the red planets. I'll dig out my HP PP and post the design later today.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Wed, 22 November 2006 18:00 |
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That's odd. I could've sworn he posted it up, and we had a discussion about it (me expressing surprise that a 1/2500 design had only around 13/x/14 fac or something, then him explaining why it works.)
I've noticed another thread recently suffer a similar trunctation (a discussion about diplomacy, where around a page of replies all disappeared.)
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Thu, 23 November 2006 20:49 |
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Ahh, that explains my confusion. I'd forgotten we had two bi-imm discussions going on at the same time lol
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| Re: Bi-Immune PP |
Fri, 24 November 2006 19:05 |
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My apologies - I forgot to post the HP design for a 1 in 4 hab. This 'generally' gets to between 25-28k in 50 years in a small / normal universe though a poor germ concentration on both starting planets does have a fairly severe impact.
Note, this is off the topic for bi-immune HP though.
Race: Megalites
PRT PP
IFE, NRSE, ISB, RS
PGR: 19%
Gravity: 0.33 - 6.80
Temp: -84 to 180 C
Radiation: 50 - 96 mR
(a decent 1 in 4 hab)
1/2500 pop efficiency
14 factories
8 resources cost
20 factories operated
G box checked
Mines:
10kt produced
cost 3
17 mines operated
Weaps cheap, all else expensive start at 3.
For anyone wanting to tweak this, you could increase factories to 21, remove the g box check and squeeze the hab a little and then could afford to take energy normal.
Ptolemy
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