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Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Mon, 23 October 2006 04:09 Go to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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I've been wondering if there's a decent way to make a bi-immune SD?

From what I can tell, everything comes up great... That is, as long as tech trade is a real heavy objective. It looks like I'd just end up with a productive and totally technologically pathetic race. Has anyone managed to make good use of a race with really bad tech settings? A 0 cheap race? Or a 1 cheap race?



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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Mon, 23 October 2006 05:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Only HE and AR PRTs can be used for liveable bi-immunes. With rest of the PRT-s ... 1 immunity is maximum one can take without screwing it up.

SD can defend its territory easier so its OK without immunities and even with HP economy. I would avoid -F SD. Minelaying equipment is somewhat expensive for -F.

As for -T races ... BackBlast won this years Duelling club championship with -T race. I am not sure 100% because he has not posted his race. Very Happy

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Mon, 23 October 2006 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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I don't believe it can be done, but here's my thinking on how you could try.

Normally you can't allow yourself to fall too far behind in tech, or your position will become hopeless. A delta-jihad gap is bad enough, but a delta-juggernaut gap would be a nightmare. So if you aren't going to be able to research enough of your own tech you'll need to be able to acquire it in battle. (Trading is good, but not something you can guarantee.) With a tech disadvantage you will need a substantially larger economy than your opponents, or have some other way to secure an advantage in your fights.

SD minefields are good for softening up an enemy if you can get them in an exploding field. Depending on their ship designs it might be possible to design your own ships to be much more resistant to mines, and few people seem to expect a SD player to send his own fleets into an exploding minefield. Since this will obliterate all normal chaff, it favors missile ships. That complements the energy dampener, if you can manage to get energy 14 and propulsion 8.

Even without the Energy Dampener, if the opponent is using a significant number of torpedos or missiles fighting from inside an exploding minefield means that some of the weird 'durable chaff' designs could become useful. Durable chaff, the energy dampener, and mine-resistant ships all point to energy tech. So you're going to need to be able to research energy on your own. Regenerating shields are a must-have here.

The biggest downside to this is that your opponent has to follow you into the minefield in the first place. They're going to be reluctant to do that after the first time you spring this surprise on them, so odds are you won't get much use out of this until they are trying to conquer you. Of course you can use that to your advantage - if they are reluctant to attack you, you can expand ruthlessly, leading the way with your minefields.

I agree with Kotk that you need factories, and I'd recommend an HP race. That helps you get the economy you'll
...

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Mon, 23 October 2006 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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What's -T?


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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Mon, 23 October 2006 20:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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2i races other than HE/AR can work...

In the (abandoned) duelling championship semi Micha bought a 2i -f JOAT to the table. My 1i -f JOAT seized an advantage due to faster early expansion, but in the process of the match I came to the conclusion that the 2i -f JOAT is most certainly viable and was toying with tweaking my JOAT into a 2i variant to face BackBlast. I probably would've stuck with my 1i in the end, but it would've been a close call.

Given SD has 41 more points to play with than JOAT, that implies a SD should be workable.

Here is a design I'd be comfortable to take into a multiplayer game (NOT suitable for duelling though)

SD
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, ISB, NAS, RS
17% PGR
Grav and Temp immune, Rad 79 to 99 (1 in 5, all of which will be 100% with 10 clicks terra, avg 5 clicks, making that 17% PGR look very fast...)
-f factory settings
1/1000 pop
10/3/10 mines
Energy and weapons cheap, rest expensive.

You will have to tech trade for con. Buying the first few levels of con will be a pain in early game, but you are a -f... En is cheap because it's good for SD toys and good for trading (for con, hopefully.)

If you want a more risky variant then up the PGR to 18% (absurdly fast given all your worlds will be 100%...), drop IFE, and drop either NRSE or 2 mines. Without the FM the ramscoops would be nice for minelayers, but 8 mines is a little tight even for a -f. Probably too tight. The 17% variant is much stronger I think.

Either design will be terrifyingly fast, for an SD. But it needs to be - it'll need a lot of territory to stay competitive if you haven't dominated already by the 60's. Requires hyper-aggressive play.

It's really tempting to give up IFE for the points, but I think SD needs the FM to move those early minelayers, and being able to ignore prop tech completely is nice for the race.


[Updated on: Mon, 23 October 2006 20:50]

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Mon, 23 October 2006 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Captain Maim wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 10:29

What's -T?


I'm guessing *no terraforming*. My duelling JOAT is 1-imm, 1-wide, 1-narrow, and is designed to terraform only radiation and only does that on planned breeders, so I guess it approaches that ideal, but doesn't quite reach it.

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Tue, 24 October 2006 00:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marduk is currently offline Marduk

 
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My assumption from the context was that -T was 'no tech'. Some of us are tech elitists who view the costs as normal, x2, and x3.5; for us, no or one cheap field might as well be no tech.

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Tue, 24 October 2006 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Marduk wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 14:54

My assumption from the context was that -T was 'no tech'. Some of us are tech elitists who view the costs as normal, x2, and x3.5; for us, no or one cheap field might as well be no tech.


Oh, lol, you are right, of course. That explains the cruiser hordes described in the match reports.

-terraforming is more a play style than a race design, I suppose, lol.

No tech in a duel, eh. That's pretty daring. I'd be surprised if he had even weapons on expensive though, even if everything else was expensive. If you came across an aggressive -f I would imagine you would lose too much ground at the start to be able to use the superior econ settings to tech up enough to be able to compete.



[Updated on: Tue, 24 October 2006 01:23]

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Tue, 24 October 2006 04:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
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-T races aren't that uncommon. The points gained can provide enough of a boost to economy to make up for it, and ultimately once techs are maxxed(or reach a reasonable peak) you have that many more resources to throw around.

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Tue, 24 October 2006 04:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 08:22

No tech in a duel, eh. That's pretty daring. I'd be surprised if he had even weapons on expensive though, even if everything else was expensive. If you came across an aggressive -f I would imagine you would lose too much ground at the start to be able to use the superior econ settings to tech up enough to be able to compete.

Yes i meant -T as "no tech".
You have to ask himself. I just fought him. My attempts to reverse engineer his race gave impression that it got all tech +75%. So it is just a gossip so far. Pls dont overestimate -F on normal density board. Most of its early foam goes into expansion. Wink Also recent history shows that -F has difficulties in semi final. Laughing

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Thu, 26 October 2006 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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Well the -f bi immune SD has been covered so I wont give you a variation on that.

Here is my Bi-immune HP (well ish) SD
The Bisdians
SD
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS
14% PGR
Grav and Rad immune, Temp -112 to -8 (1 in 3)
1/2500 pop
12/7/14 fac
10/3/14 mines
Energy cheap, rest expensive.
Start at 3 and germ box both ticked.

I am aware that this race is broken in many ways (14% PGR is way too low and factories are too poor for a HP, plus that many expensive techs will hurt) but the idea is to find the points for the second immunity.

So how to play this - well you need to bluff Rolling Eyes .
First 5 years build fac/mine and nothing else.
Starting scout and minelayers to scout - should scout 10-15 worlds in the first 5 years (giving you 4-5 greens found with 1 in 3).
Turn 6 Colonise the best hab/germ/closeness world with your Santa, build handful of scouts and a MF with Fuel pod.
Turn 7 pod takes col to best world, build 1MF with col mod and 1MML with 1 40M standard layer (with best 100ly range scanner) and surplus res (and you will have a little) to fac/mine.
Turn 8-15 build same (may be forced to spend a turn building mines), the MF Cols go to the near worlds, the MML the far worlds (laying at a near world if poss). The ML Fuel drags back minerals from all the nearby worlds if you need it (hopefully the Homeworld will cope on its own).

Its all about the bluff - you sacrifice rapid growth on your homeworld (which is the only place you can build ships!!) in order to project the illusion of power over a fairly wide area.

By 2415 you have 8 (and 2 in transit) small weak colonies unable to defend themselves - the 3-5 outermost with minelayers protecting them and 5-7 more potential worlds with minelayers protecting them.
You also have 250-300 of useful res at homeworld and pathetic tech.
If someone attacks you, then you are toast.

However the other players see a SD that started colonising early and sent MML to defend worlds. They need to build 5DDs to sucessfully sweep and take a world of yours - which i
...




Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Thu, 26 October 2006 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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14% PGR on a bi-immune is not so bad for a HP.

HP is typically 17% / 18%, but 1 or no immune. The improved quality of each world should go a long way towards making up the shortage. It'll hurt in teh very early game, but it ought to catch up a bit as a higher percentage of your worlds will be breeder quality.


[Updated on: Thu, 26 October 2006 19:09]

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Fri, 03 November 2006 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 24 October 2006 02:38

2i races other than HE/AR can work...

Absolutely right! Laughing Nod

Quote:

In the (abandoned) duelling championship semi Micha bought a 2i -f JOAT to the table. My 1i -f JOAT seized an advantage due to faster early expansion, but in the process of the match I came to the conclusion that the 2i -f JOAT is most certainly viable and was toying with tweaking my JOAT into a 2i variant to face BackBlast. I probably would've stuck with my 1i in the end, but it would've been a close call.


My Alpha Bits 2i JoaT won all it's duels except for the too early ending of the semi finals. Sad

(I also used it in the 2005 championship. The normal density for 2006 championship hurt as expected, especially with the IFE-less version, but too lazy and no time to try a new race.)

Now tell me: "that will only work for duels" and I'll tell you a different story. Smile

(not going into details of the JoaT or other PRT 2i versions since that's off topic here, and no time)

mch


[Updated on: Fri, 03 November 2006 09:08]

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Fri, 03 November 2006 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Micha wrote on Sat, 04 November 2006 01:07

My Alpha Bits 2i JoaT won all it's duels except for the too early ending of the semi finals. Sad

I suspect the early end to that duel was better for the race's Win/Loss record than continuing though Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz But we'll never know Crying or Very Sad Laughing The ironic thing about that whole affair is that a couple of weeks later I've now got absolutely tons of time to myself hahaha


[Updated on: Fri, 03 November 2006 10:54]

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Sat, 04 November 2006 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
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Actually, the race design that Joseph posted just might work - in fact, that same design with a little tweaking might work as a bi-immune for just about any of the PRT's other than CA and HE.

Bi-immunes are extremley expensive - the only way I could conceive of one working out is if it is created and played more like an HE. The main drawback is that there are no mini-colonizers.

So, if you think of a bi-immune HE with PGR set at 7 - you equal the 14% PGR of Josephs's bi-immune design. Add to this you have double the pop on planets of the HE and stargates.

I suspect that I would change facs to cost 8 to gain some extra points and drop the G box. There will be enough to then pay for ISB and a mine or 2 extra or one more factory. Put weaps cheap and energy expensive, change to temp immune and use a narrow radiation band. Yep, this concept should work.

Ptolemy


[Updated on: Sun, 05 November 2006 02:36]





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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Sat, 04 November 2006 23:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Are you sure? Did you notice the HG style fac settings?

You are suggesting something like:
14% 1/2500 12/8/14 4g 10/3/16

- HG style facs, HP style pop growth and eff, average mines...

I think HP (in general) needs a bare minimum of 15/8/16 facs (and mines good enough to both supply them and still have germ for ships.)

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Sun, 05 November 2006 02:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
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No Dogthinker, HP's don't need a minimum of 15/8/16 facs - that's a fact. I've never quantified a minimum setting for an HP but, I have successfully played an IT HP with 12/8/15 and an SS HP with 13/9/20 - and I won both those games. I have never set a HP to use 15/x/x - the cost for 15 resources per is too high. My best performing HP's are at around 14/8/20.

The trade off here is with the hab. With bi-immune, all the planets that you can live on are going to be very high value. At one in 3, there are going to be a lot of planets available. I wouldn't play this though in anything smaller than a large universe.

Ptolemy




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Sun, 05 November 2006 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Hmm, well you learn something every day. I'd always seen it primarily as a trade off of speed for capacity (per world), I hadn't really considered trading speed and capacity (per world) for *more/better* worlds (=more capacity...) I'll have to experiment. Thanks for opening my eyes to another style of play.

[Updated on: Sun, 05 November 2006 16:09]

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Sun, 05 November 2006 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
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I'll do a few checks myself for viability though I'll see if I can make a bi-immune work for an SS.

Ptolemy




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Sat, 11 November 2006 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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Having run the race into the 50s it does really pick up speed and becomes quite nasty.
First with the quickly ramping factories any planet that you stop at 33% swiftly greens the queue - and should then be exporting germ and pop.
Any planet that has greened the queues and you let rise the factories grow as fast as the pop.
With the 1 in 3 you always have planets near each other so you can use low germ planets to fill up the pop on high germ ones (so you can fill worlds up to 100% fairly quickly).

Finally with all those worlds at high greens (so near 14% growth) you start to literally swim in pop so you can start new worlds by dropping 1/2 a planets worth of colonists on them (gives 200 res a turn which will build nearly 30 factories).
Leave them there for 2-3 turns then pick up the (original)colonists and move to the next new world.
This tactic means that your new worlds should be ready in about the time a HG new world would be rather than the slower time of a HP world.


Also I agree with Ptolemy, ISB would be good (if you can find the points) and you want a game with a bit of space in it.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Practicablity of a Bi-Immune SD? Sat, 11 November 2006 20:39 Go to previous message
Kotk

 
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I am still wondering ... why you use 12/7/14 factories? Surprised
14/8/12 factories do have exactly same econ. Nod
However they cost less germ. As additional surprize they also cost slightly less resources and even slightly less rw points? Shocked

I have so far thought that 14/8/x are the worst factories that HP may get along with... but yep 12/7/x are maybe liveable too ... only that they cost more. Rolling Eyes
Cool

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